0:00 Today's episode of the hybrids podcast. I'm your host, Mr. Daniel Martinez. Today I have special guests land investor, Mr. Mike Marshall. From today, we call him today. 0:12 How're you doing today? 0:13 I'm good, man. I'm good. 0:14 Good, good. Good to be with you. Thank you for the opportunity. 0:17 Oh, what part of the country get you from where you are? 0:19 Right now? I'm living in Texas, but I'm originally from California. So yeah, made my way here. And so been here for about a year or so now. So kind of new implants have been good. Well, part of Texas, East Texas, just about half hour east of Dallas. Okay, bye. Bye, Tyler. Yeah, in between Dallas and Tyler, actually. Yep. 0:41 We just did a deal in Greenville. 0:43 Okay, yeah, absolutely. Yep. Not too far. 0:46 I'm familiar with it. I live in California. So we do a big part of California when I'm in sending out to LA in between in the middle. Okay, so I used to live for years, 0:55 like Northern LA County, kind of like where Magic Mountain is? If you know where that is. So I was like, right there. 1:01 Okay, good for you. You're, I live here, but don't go over there. Good for you. Perfect. That's funny how we been doing real estate? 1:10 Yeah, you know, I've been in like land development and like planning and zoning that whole profession for over about 20 years now I spend about 15 of it working in like the public sector. So working for jurisdictions in Texas and California. Yeah, doing like planning and zoning work. So working on everything from like, custom single family homes to large 1200 lot residential subdivisions, medical office buildings, and then like a TV and movie studio campus, towards the end of my time with the jurisdiction on there. And so did a whole lot of stuff got a whole lot of experience. And so I was able to transfer that over onto the investment side eventually, 1:48 I'm sure that's probably the best experience you can get. Yeah, you 1:51 know, getting paid to, like, you know, get all that real world experience was really useful. And, you know, I made a whole lot of different contacts along the way. And I was able to kind of bridge that gap where I was able to help some of the customers that were at the city I was working at, help them on other projects outside that city, and then kind of gravitate and build my consulting business. And then that's how I left and went out on my own. 2:13 That's crazy. I've I like this, like, I think it's one of the even doing that for so long. I think it's one of the real examples that you can use, like your, you can use like your even if you have a nine to five job, you can use that to your benefit if you know what direction you want to go. And I'm not sure if it was intentional or not. But that's a great lead up. 2:30 Yeah, you know, I think what it was was like, early on, you know, as a kid, I Dad had some real estate and I was kind of exposed that way for a while. And then I always wanted to get back into it as an adult, but I kind of came to work for a city in another profession, and then ended up gravitating towards it. So yeah, there was an intention there to be within the real estate space, you know, and then I never knew I was going to be there for that long and gather that much experience. But it became extremely useful. 2:57 Extremely, extremely useful. I mean, I'm in my head, I'm thinking like, that'd be, that'd be a good little notch on my belt right there. 3:03 Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, that's what I leverage our whole business off of, is really, you know, trying to bridge that gap. Because that's what happened is I kind of noticed there's this gap between, like planners and people at the city, and then investors, you know, and like, nobody was able or willing to kind of bridge that gap. And so that's what I kind of predicated, everything I did off was trying to make that complex world more easy to understand for investors so that we can capitalize on it. So that was kind of my whole intent. 3:30 I think I think one of the biggest things is 100% of the county wants to like fight certain developments and the and we we as developers bring in revenue and tax revenue back to the community, we actually build communities where we're bringing in retail tenants or mobile home parks or housing, like we actually provide development, even warehousing like we actually might build ground up a development and actually bring in jobs. So I think the city is like the city should be our friends, not our enemies. Yeah, absolutely. 3:58 And I obviously there's like this whole concept of this whole reality out there where there's that adversarial relationship. But if you can find a way to do what the city wants, and still achieve your investment goals, like that's, that's the whole thing, right? Sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes, you know, the jurisdictions are very late to come to the reality of what the market is actually telling us. And so sometimes there's just this doesn't work out. But a lot of times you can go in there, if you go in with like the right mindset, you know, and the intention of actually doing something that the city wants, at the same time as achieving your goals, you can do really well. 4:34 So actually, I have a funny story about this. And this is very pertinent to this conversation, which is really weird and rare that it happens. So I want to bring it up. We actually just want to meet we went to the county, go talk to the zoning Development Committee and all that stuff. And we ended up meeting the mayor, and it was like a weird interaction. The mayor's like, yeah, I can pull some strings and like, just tell us what you want. And we're always like that. It seems like We're hot, we're gonna have like a good relationship with with the city. The mayor is like, yeah, I can pull some strings, I have a little bit of power. And I'm like, Okay, this is gonna be interesting. 5:09 Yeah, there's like that spot where you like, kind of step into the political world a little bit, you know. And that's the reality of the development business, though there is a there is a political component to it, you know? And so it is very much relationship driven. 5:24 100%. So, what do you help cities understand the investment side and kind of work with them? Or do you help them investors help the city side, so they can create a cohesive, like, what's your dynamic as far as what you do on either side, because I think they're both very pivotal. 5:40 Yeah, it's more that it's coming from helping the investor, understand what the city would allow for what you can do with the property within those regulations. And so that's the primary focus. And then what it is, is that we do project management as well. So if we have a client that wants us to manage one of one of their projects, we'll kind of usher it through that entitlement process for them. They're looking over our shoulder as much or as little as they want. But we're trying to help kind of streamline that process and kind of eliminate some of the roadblocks that we typically have seen. So our whole thing is to be able to get our investor clients to understand you know what the process is, but then also help get them through it that much faster and easier. So it's more education, working with the investor. And then when it comes down to the specific project, and there is some of that with the city as well. 6:29 Yeah, we have a couple. One thing we like about Texas, the 10 acre rule, we do a lot of that, but we're venturing into smaller parcels, which actually go into the city getting approval. So we're just diving into that side of it. So I'm curious to see like, is there any counties, you could say that are easier than others, because we try and state us personally, we try to stay away from like the major major cities in the ETJ. But we're usually operating in the outskirts counties of all these major cities, because they're usually a little bit more flexible. And they want that development. 7:07 Yeah, if you're outside the ETJ, or even inside the ETJ, in some cases, you're not going to deal with zoning. So that's a good thing in a lot of ways, just because you're not going to have to deal with those hurdles. If you are inside the ETJ, then like usually there will not be zoning, but the city will still have control over subdivision regulations. So it's your point, if you want to streamline that subdivision process, yeah, if you could stay outside the ETJ, then you're better off. At that point, then, like, there isn't necessarily like counties that are more favorable than the others, the only thing I tell people is that, you know, you could subdivide land all day, but you need to have demand there, you know, you have to quantify that demand side of the equation. So whether it be for housing, or if it's for hunting tracks, or whatever you're doing, you got to make sure that there's demand there, because otherwise, you know, you're just gonna sit on that stuff. And so we try to educate the people that we work with on that. But yeah, you know, and the thing is, with that, that 10 acre exemption, there's about 16 Other states throughout the country that have very similar exemptions that apply. And there's some states that have exemptions that apply, they're actually smaller than five acre, sort of smaller than 10 acres. And so those ones are attractive, because if you can come down even smaller, you can take advantage of that price per acre differential from the parent parcel down to the child parcel that much more. And so there's those opportunities that are out there for sure. 8:28 Do you have the list of those states? 8:30 Yeah, we do. We have on our website, we actually offer it to our coaching members that we work to so it's inside of that. We're updating it right now. And maybe releasing it out to the public soon, too. 8:42 Okay. Yeah. That's one of the things we're like we we've done a lot. We've done so many deals in Texas, in Texas, I know there's other states that are similar to that. So we've been, we've been trying to like, we haven't necessarily had time to do the research because like, I think Texas is so big that you can we can literally stay in Texas and not ever have to go neither states but for claim opportunity arises in other states. So we're always like, I don't know, but it looks good. If we could do the same thing. And I'm like, I don't know. 9:10 Yeah. Do you guys do work in California then too. 9:15 We are mostly we get a lot. We get deals southern Oklahoma, Colorado, we usually are most of the deals are Texas and Florida. I've done a few deals in Florida. Not usually started by just like basic land flips, but mostly all our subdivides and like development stuff has all been in Texas, because we're here to Texas regulation. So that's like the little national but we know Texas regulation very well. So we just we do what we know, you know? 9:41 Yeah, absolutely. So you guys are just going in and getting a surveyor basically, they create the metes and bounds description and the scope recorded at the county and that's pretty much the end of it, right? Pretty much. Yeah. That's great. That's great. Yeah, understanding the nuances of the subdivision regulations can be really beneficial. There's in California If you split anything, you know, you're gonna have to go to the planning, commission hearing and all this other stuff. But there's little nuances in that even still, where you could take advantage of things where you can cut that process in half. Again, it's just knowing the rules, just like anything else. It's like you're saying, you know, Texas, and if you're in California, a lot of people stay away from that for a variety of reasons. And I understand that. But there are ways to cut that process down, especially when you're doing lots that are for fewer, if you're creating for fewer lots, that's an opportunity to really streamline that process and dollar for dollar, you may end up being better off in that situation, too. 10:37 Yeah. And I, like I said, we're venturing into other states right now. And looking at as opportunities, because it's just, it's just learning the individual state. I mean, you have to go through the research do deals there, and you kind of learn the process. And every every state and county is gonna be a little different. But it's all based off the same framework in most cases. 10:53 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it the main, I think idea is that, if you're cutting up large parcels of land, and you're not proposing any improvements, like roadways, and utilities, and all these other things, there's really not a lot for the county to really review at that point. So they're not going to, you know, clog up the system when they don't really have much to look at. 11:12 That makes sense. That makes sense. This is why I like I always follow the little acronym. I don't know who said it, but people simple, stupid. 11:19 Yeah, it's so true. And simplicity is a virtue, man, like, just not like boggle your mind with all that stuff. Because once you start doing like, large, you know, what they call major subdivisions. So many other things start to kick in, you're looking at water and sewer and roadway improvements and dedications and development impact fees, and those are all fine. And well, that's not to say that big deals aren't worth that they certainly can be, but you got to like kind of balance it out and understand that sometimes it's not worth the headache. And you know, it may be in the thing that I usually tell people that we work with is keep your land flipping business going and keeping that moving, you know, and then try to do like one or two of these a year, and see how you see how you take to it. 11:57 100% I agree with that sentiment 100%. Because like, the larger development entitlement do play the plays that take a year, six months, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, depending on your county, your state. So if your that's your last meal, you're gonna start. 12:12 Yeah, that's exactly and then it's hard to to, unless you have investors that are used to that. And it's hard to convince them to stay on board with you for that amount of time. 12:23 Let's segue into that. Because I think that's one of the biggest problems we have as land investors is building up that credibility because there's billions and trillions of dollars for other investment classes. But for land, it's always the last one to get funding. And it's like it's like a struggle for every land investor out there. Right. We've We've kind of grown into it, and we're kind of dealing with it our own way. But like, what's your solution to kind of building and finding funding for land as a whole? 12:50 Yeah, you know, I think it is definitely harder, you know, there was a time in like the land flipping space, at least, where if you were getting funding, they would want you know, 50% of the profits, and they'd want to double their money that was usually like the goal. And I think that's kind of relaxed a little bit, in some instances, especially if you're looking at bigger projects, if the challenges and entitlement stuff is that there's not a lot of institutional funding for, like raw land acquisition prior to you having the approvals in place. Yet, once you have entitlements, and like maybe engineering permits, and even building permits in place, it's very easy to get or not very easy, but it's easier to get institutional funding at that point. So what you really need I think, is you just need people that are experienced in the land space that are willing to go and put their money in and kind of take on that risk. You know, that's what the whole thing with it. That's why land developers don't like doing the entitlement processes, because they have the perception of it being risky. But if you can go in and get those entitlements in place, you're adding certainty to an uncertain situation. And that's where you're creating value through the use of entitlements. But you definitely just need to get, like people that are familiar with the land flipping process and turning dirt, it to be able to putting in money to it. So it's about creating that network of people again, you know, and you just got to build that up over time and build your resume. And then if you don't have a resume, then you got to just lean on other people that do you know, partner with them JV with them, you know, you'd be willing to do some of the legwork. It's all the same stuff we've heard, you know, in real estate investing for a long time. So if you're willing to do some of that legwork, and you and you can JV with somebody that can bring in the money, then then that's great. That's the way to go. The other thing that we do, too, we have our people look at the opportunity to JV with the actual landowner to that's another way of kind of reducing your investment in the deal, at least on the front end. So especially if they're wanting to here's the thing, right in land flipping space, we're always looking for the motivated seller. And that motivated seller is ideal if they're going to give us a greater discount. In a situation with entitlements especially you're adding value so you can offer more money As a result of that, and also with the help of that is that you can get closer to the sellers asking price as well. So you get closer to their asking price. And then you can even split the upside to a certain degree as well. And you know, as long as they hang on and keep the property off the market while you go through the process, you can set it up that way. 15:17 100% It's, like he said, that segwaying into another thing, I actually have a call right after this talking to a seller who essentially pitched himself innovation. Like, he's like, I want to partner with you guys helped me take care of the mortgage, because he has a he got like, 75 acres with a house to take care of, of this of this balance that's due every month. I'll partner with you. I mean, that that's like a home run. You like it? Let's 15:40 go. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, I mean, there's so many opportunities, you know, to like, kind of force that appreciation on a property, you know, and get stuff going, you know, and we deal with subdivisions. We also do like rezoning work as well, you know, and so, there's a lot of ways to kind of skin the cat, so to speak. 15:59 So I want to, I want to dive into this because I want to make some apartment investors mad. This is this is always the fun part. But I just did a I spoken at an event this past weekend. You know, like, here's an apartment. I'm like, I had to raise my hand. What did we imagine if you could evaluate just by adding paper? 16:19 Yeah. Yeah, it's true. It's so true. 16:24 Let's talk about value add by adding paper. So the power of the pen and paper can do a lot of damage in the land space. 16:30 Yeah, you sure can. And I mean, I think like, I just think of the rezoning idea. You know, and I'll give you an example. There's one that we're working on in Florida right now. And just the value lift from where it is today to once it's rezoned. It's almost a seven figure lift just in getting it rezoned. You know, so, so right now, it's agriculturally zoned. And the idea is that it's going to go to an apartment building, essentially. So like 200 units. And in that whole process of changing the zoning, you have a value add just in, you know, seven figures pretty close to it just in that, that, you know, that process of getting the rezoning done. And so it's about identifying the opportunity, it's about understanding the process, having the right people on your team to be able to do it, and then be able to really be in a market that's really in favor of rezoning. And so that's one of the things that you can do with regards to rezoning as you look at the number of rezoning cases that have gone before the Planning Commission and city council. If they've been in a habit of approving these, you can see that there's like momentum going in that direction. And that bodes well for like a rezoning type of situation. So that's just one example of using paper to add massive value. You're never touching it. 17:44 Yeah, I was like, I was like, I pick on pick on houses sometimes. But we're gonna pick on multifamily today. And I was like, like, you have to speak in their terms, you have to speak in their language, because a lot of people will go over their head as far as what you're talking about. So I always like the board term value add, like, we're gonna value add this property, just by adding paperwork. But what does that look like, when we talk to the county we do ABC, and this is what it was. And that's even you can even use it when you're raising capital to like, Hey, this is the value add, we're gonna we're gonna do to this property just by adding the paperwork. 18:16 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it could be in like the idea of using paper to add value mean, it doesn't even have to apply to big projects, like we're talking about and make it apply to little vacant lots, you know, inside of like subdivided areas, you know, you can have situations where you have a non conforming lot, that's too small per zoning, and you technically can't build on it right now. But if you can navigate that process, get necessary variances approved again, just paperwork, you can add massive value just in doing that, too. 18:46 Yeah, there's a lot that like their historic properties is subdivided wrong. And now new ordinance makes it unbuildable. So you're dealing with a, a, nothing you can do with a lot. So you solve that problem. And I think it all comes down real estate comes down to solving the problems whether it's paperwork or or, or inheritances, stuff like that. 19:07 Yeah, it's like people are the paperwork that's involved. One of the two. Yeah, very much so 19:12 100%. So it's always a unique thing, just doing not having to build and let's talk about this. So this is a good question for this for you, I think, is I always tell people, I network a lot of investors on Twitter and there's like developers and like in New York, in New Jersey, you have to like buy the property and then go through all this entitlement stuff because the process takes so long and they're kind of like betting on this potential property that could be approved that we could build this amazing thing, you know, so like, what is like I personally avoid having not to shovel or get the gets get the contractors in there to kind of do things. what's your what's your opinion on like, and for us, we might do roads and water lines, and stuff like that, but we're not putting in how home There's nothing opinion on that. Yeah, I 20:03 mean, I think in a lot of ways, I mean, again, I guess there's personal preference, but I try would not, I would try not to put in any physical improvements, if I didn't have to. Sometimes, sometimes you're gonna have to, and sometimes that's based on what the jurisdiction requires, you know, so they may require or allow for you to get your subdivision plat approved, without doing certain improvements. Sometimes they're going to require you have it. So a lot of the gamesmanship involved in it is understanding what's required, and then also what the timing is associated to that requirement. Because ultimately, you may be able to kind of kick that thing down the road to the next person in line. So as you're just doing the entitlements like me, I'm not the developer, necessarily, I'm going to sell to a developer. And in that situation, I'm trying to push as much as I can off of me in terms of the financial obligations. But you also have to be mindful, too, that if you put too much on their side, that might kind of distract them or detract them from actually buying the property too. So there's a little bit of give and take, but you do have to look at it and understand what those costs are, when they're due. And if there's a way to kind of work it so that way, it's in your favor. 21:10 Yeah. And I think I think I comment on that part, you have to know, all the underlying your engineering, absolutely get the underlying cost of that. Because if they pass that to the to them, you don't want to like, oh, you figure it out, like, like, I'll sell it to you at this price. But you have to tell me what you want it like you have to really do a lot more due diligence on your side. And know, it makes sense whenever you're exiting. Because 100%, I don't want to build, I don't want to dig a shovel, I don't want to do any of that of that work. I'm just doing the paperwork and finding the property and creating opportunity. Our job as developers is to essentially serve on a silver platter to the next person. 21:45 Yeah, exactly. You know, and so, yeah, so it's understanding that delicate balance that that's there, you know, and the thing is, it might be different based on the project that you're working on to, you know, in the property that you're at. So sometimes you might always say that it's like a highway, you can get off at different points, you know, and so you can get off after the entitlements, if you wanted to, or if you wanted to have a contractor and do all the subsurface utilities and all the horizontal development, you could get off at that exit. So you can kind of choose where you're getting off. And so it's about kind of what your experience and preferences, mine is that I'd like to get off when the paperwork is done, you know, and get get done with the entitlements and be done and move on. And, you know, and that may not be where the biggest you know, profit is, a lot of times, it's going to be really towards the developer. But in large part, you know, they kind of make sense, 22:33 they have the most risk as well, because they have to, they have to buy a build shovel, and then they might not run out, 22:38 you know, right? When they're under a time gun too, right? Because all the costs, whether it be labor materials, or you know, fees to the jurisdictions or whatever else, those things may be, those things are all kind of burning at them at the same time. So yeah, it makes sense. 22:52 No, 100% 100% I like the analogy of getting off on whatever eggs that you want. And I think that's a great for everybody listening, that's a great analogy, because a lot of people think they have to take it. And I've seen so many developers, they'll they'll go in, do all the entitlements, and then they'll build the house. And I'm like, you can exit at any point. And you don't have to do this, you don't have to go down that road if you don't want to. I think a lot of investors are a lot of investors, like, oh, I want to actually design and build this thing. And I'm like, Why? Why do I go that far? You already did all the work to make money? Why Why not monetize it from A to B to C versus A to F, you know? 23:32 Yeah. I mean, it gets unless you have like, unique experience, or that's just your jam. That's your thing. You know, I guess I get that. But, you know, you got to balance like profits. And you also have to balance your time and frustration, you know. So, again, it's like anything in life, right? It's important to know what your skill set is. And like, if I was a contractor, then I would certainly look at that, but that's not me. And so I just know that right, where I need to get off the off the highway, like you said, you know, and so I'm sure there's value. I mean, obviously there is that's why the business is there. But I know my role, I think that's a kind of a real important takeaway. Do 24:08 you have an opinion on creating affordable housing? 24:13 Yeah, I mean, obviously, housing shortage is a big deal. You know, in a lot of states, California, Florida, a lot of other states too. And so what you're seeing right now you're seeing like the state legislation or the state, you know, lawmakers, they're making legislation to kind of streamline the development process, get units on the ground, whether they're affordable or not. You know, I think that what's interesting is that it needs to make sense, obviously, even like an affordable housing developer, they still need it to make sense for them. And a lot of times they need like, lands donated to them from the city and stuff like that. So it gets really complex. I think what's more realistic is instead of a complete, like, a complete, like affordable housing project, it'd be a market rate project that has affordable units that are blended into it, you know, and when do that, then you can get some incentives from the jurisdiction, most of the time, it's added density. So you know, if you have 10 units per acre as is, but you get affordable housing units in there, then they may allow you to go up to like 13 units an acre, or whatever happens to be. And so there's usually those kind of like benefits that come along with providing affordable housing. So I think that's more the reality. That's what I see more often than not, is some sort of integration into it into a certain number of units. And a lot of jurisdictions are mandating either that and or senior housing as well. 25:33 That's probably the best answer I've heard. I've heard, I've asked like, questions, a couple people in like blood lending space, and in this development space a little bit, and no one's have a good answer is that I think it's been the best answer so far. So I appreciate that. Because it's such, it's such a hard question. And I like the people's responses, because I think we live in a capitalist country, and it's hard to actually incentivize people to build for free. 25:57 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It is, you know, and then, you know, unfortunately, like, they have to overcome the stigma that's attached to it, you know, and it doesn't help to go in and build an affordable housing project, and like, have it aesthetically, look, like, you know, like, just like square stucco boxes, you know, you have to make it an attractive living environment. So there are some really good, affordable housing developers that do that. And they do a great job at it, you know, so it's about partnering at that point to getting the city to partner with the right developer to be able to get that to happen. 26:29 Yeah, I think that might be the solution, man density, allowing the more densities that really monetize that situation a little bit more than they thought, and they create the right property for the right people. 26:39 Right. Absolutely. Agreed. 26:41 I think I think I was gonna answer it. Oh, that was a really good answer. I really appreciate that. That was that was good. I hope I'll people that went on to. But I think I think a lot of people want to change, they want to change the dynamic of oh, I want to make better for the environment, I want to provide affordable housing, but like, no one really has a solution. 27:02 Yeah, I mean, obviously, some of those things are such huge, massive problems, you know, and then when you add money into the picture, that changes the context of it and everything. And so, yeah, it depends on the jurisdiction to you know, I mean, where they're at, in a lot of these jurisdictions get pressured to get affordable housing units on the ground. And then again, because of stigmas that are attached to it, you have a lot of decision makers that really don't want it. But they're being put, they're being mandated by the state to be able to provide it. And so even that being the case, they're still like these roadblocks, and they're still, you know, they drag their feet, it becomes really problematic. So you got to get those units on the ground, but you got to make it streamlined and easier. And that's one other thing that they'll do, too, is that if you put in affordable housing units, they'll streamline the approval process in some instances. And so that's kind of a benefit to because they've saved time, obviously, 27:52 is there a gem that you took from your previous experience working with the counties, that is like, I use this every time and every deal that like the one thing that's kind of in your tool belt forever, that you learn from, from that experience? 28:09 There's like the soft stuff, like, you know, the relationship stuff, and making sure that you have the right people in the jurisdiction that you're working with, that you can go to all the time, you know, they're reliable, that you can go to and get your answers, you know, and that's really, really important. You'll find that a lot of jurisdictions are very tough to work with, they don't communicate well or anything like that. But if you can create that relationship, that's going to be key. And if you can't, then you got to find somebody that does have that relationship. And a lot of times that's like a civil engineer, somebody that's doing projects in that jurisdiction, you know, the other thing I'd say to like, the biggest probably takeaways I'd say is that, like the planning, and zoning department is really like the closest thing to a crystal ball that you'll ever have in terms of like understanding what's going on in development, because they're basically going to be two to three years ahead of what's going to end up on the ground. And so if you want to understand what's going on in the, you know, your area, you got to track growth, you got to look at what's going on at the planning level. So having conversations with them understanding zoning, understanding, like where that growth pattern is, is a huge thing, as well. And then the last thing I'd say is that, you know, there's deep the devils in the details, right? And so there's a lot of opportunities that are out there to like add value and do different things. And it's based on the nuances of the zoning regulations. And unfortunately, unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, the jurisdictions, right, the language of those zoning codes, oftentimes they give themselves flexibility and interpretations. And so they want the ability to interpret it one way or the other based on the circumstances. And so again, it really is based on relationships and getting those favorable interpretations. 29:56 One of the biggest things I'm going to touch on is is the person in The office that are already doing it, that is a huge gem for everybody here, you find out who that person is, you're gonna get approved every time. Yeah, absolutely. That is, that's such a huge one. 30:11 It's so true, you know, and it's a whole, it's hard to, if you're, if you're like doing your investing from a distance, that's a little bit hard to do, but you just got to get people on your team, those boots on the ground, that are going to be able to develop those relationships, or already have them in place, there will always be somebody in every jurisdiction, that's kind of like, kind of like the grease man, the one that like gets the things through, you know, and they have the relationships to be able to do that. And so you find who that person is, who can basically lobby and advocate on your behalf, that becomes really, really useful. And that becomes more useful when you're looking at larger projects. You know, I'm a big proponent of like flying under the radar, and kind of doing projects where I can add value, and then get in and get out and not have to deal with a lot of that stuff. Because you can just cause yourself less stress a lot of times, that's all it's different strokes for different folks. 31:04 That's so funny. I love I love the grease man term. It's 100%, it's 100% Sure, there's that person in the office that goes there. And I remember when I first started real estate investing, there was a guy, I went to the end up going to the county for whatever reason, and I saw the same guy twice. So I stopped that guy. Yeah. Yep. And they've gone there to random days. And I'm like, I'm the same same guy twice. He was walking out with like, the permit plans. Anyone there with this plan? I'm like, okay, that's the guy I need to talk to. I don't I know, I don't know why that's the guy I want to talk to. 31:37 Yeah, I don't even see jurisdictions where like, former employees will hang out in the lobby, and will like, you know, do things for different developers and stuff like that, you know, and these work off of their relationships again, you know, and I saw that in City of Austin quite a bit when I was doing stuff down there. And yeah, you know, and just getting to know like, the right people just, it just breaks the ice. Because a lot of planners and stuff, they will immediately will put up a wall, because they just have that preconceived notion that you're out there to kind of, you know, 32:09 do in the water. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Water trying to steal and do bad things. 32:16 Right, exactly. 32:18 We're not going to approve you because you're, you're a foreign entity. 32:21 Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, very true. 32:26 So it's very, very nuanced. One thing I want to ask you too, and I thought of it later, but the ask you about private capital for, for for land in general. This is really sorry, this is really circling back. Sorry about that. This is the back, I had the thought. And I'm like, I need to bring it up again. But building up your resume partnering with the right people, and then there's always a lender for your project, you have to find them. And I learned this from a commercial broker I had on here a couple of weeks ago. He said there's always a lender for any specific project is finding, finding and talking to the right person. So if you can't get funding that you need to do some more searching. 33:12 Yeah, I agree. I mean, the thing that I've tried to keep in my mind is that, you know, money always finds good deals and good deals, find good management. So it's really the good deals come out of the people that can manage those deals and have that experience. And those good deals will always find money. I believe that to be true. 33:31 What is a quote that is yours or somebody else's that you resonate with. 33:35 Simplicity is a virtue. That's my big my biggest thing, man, you cannot buy or sell, you know, your peace of mind, you know. And so and that thing is that's unique about that is that it's different for everybody, you know, and so like, well, I have the knowledge and experience to probably do like big projects and stuff like that, sometimes I'd rather not. Because of the stress and everything that's involved in that, I'd rather kind of utilize my knowledge and kind of work between the nooks and crannies fly under the radar, whatever other analogy you want to use, but like I said, simplicity is a virtue because at the same no matter what, you know, you can't let the world kind of infect your mind like that, you know, and so sometimes that business of land development can be very, very stressful. And so you have to have the right personality for so getting to know yourself is really, really important. 34:25 I want to pick up the house people a little bit what do you have to say to the house flippers out there that maybe are interested in land? 34:30 I mean, if I was choosing house flipping versus land flipping, I would certainly go and deal with like the land flipping situation a lot more a lot, a lot faster. Just I think for me again, everybody's different but like you're dealing with people and their house and their personal home. I think that's a such an emotional thing. Or even if it's their parents home or something like that, that's such an emotional thing. So dealing with the emotions that are involved in that, that's a lot, a lot more to deal with. And then obviously there's the competition aspect and everything like that. that some people love it. And that's great. But for me, I stay away with it away from it primarily just because I don't want to deal with the emotional aspects that are associated with like that homeowner like that. 35:10 100% 100% I agree with you on the same thing. Where can people find you online? I have your totals property group.com here and tell us about what you do in Animal Services. 35:20 Right? Yeah, absolutely. So you can go to the website, Tolosa property group.com. On there, we have like a free webinar about forced appreciation. That's kind of how we see ourselves, we see ourselves as forced appreciation specialist. So you can go and see all of that stuff there. There's a whole thing there. And you can see all of our services, we do have a coaching program. We do have like a webinar series that we're starting up at the end of starting up at the end of the year here. So you can take a look at that as well. And then on Facebook, you can find our group, it's called forced appreciation strategies. You can check us out there too. 35:53 There you go. Well, thank you, Mike. I really appreciate you coming on. I think for everybody here I think I think I have some pretty good questions. And hopefully it was a switch up from your usual episodes. But thanks for coming on and giving value to the community and I hope everyone here learn so at least one good thing they could take away and to get put in the national belt for All right, thanks so much. Thanks for tuning in guys. Like Like, subscribe, you know to do. We'll see you the next episode. Thanks for tuning in, guys. Bye.