Hey, welcome to today's episode. I'm Nate Martinez, your host, we have a special guest, Roy Osteen from Vancouver, Canada. One of the big things I love about podcasting is you get to talk and learn from everybody all over the world, like the world is at your fingertips, and I love having these conversations. So we're talking about before the episode, we're talking about how he got up at five this morning, and I did not so we're having a great conversation about that. But it's one of those things where you get to you get to have a conversation about the random things, and you get to learn from everybody during the conversation. So I have not talked about what we're going to talk about yet. So it should be interesting off the cuff, which is what I like. So, right, firstly, what I usually ask is, How did you get into business because a lot of people, sometimes inherited business, some people just fall into it. So people are like, I'm gonna be in business when I'm 12 years old, and that they kind of go down that path the rest of their life. And it seems like you have a lot of experience. So when did you have it in business? Because it's different for everybody? Well, let me tell you one thing, Daniel, I did not fall into it. I worked myself through it basically is kind of the way I would describe it. But I've had literally three to four decades of, of trying to get it right in, in business. And I started very, very early in the telecom world, at the time that it was going through this extreme metamorphosis between being a monopoly and being highly competitive. And it occurred to me as we were thinking through how we are going to accommodate the changing market conditions that occurred to me that we weren't doing the right thing. As an organization, we were steeped in tradition, we quite frankly, were mediocre, in a lot of things that that would be highly relevant in a competitive world, like marketing, like customer service, those sorts of things. And so it actually led me and drove me to kind of like a very, very strong element of my brand, which I would describe as breakaway. I'm not a pivot guy, I don't like the word because it's not strong enough pivot suggests that you, you simply move on a fulcrum. I'm about changing the fulcrum, and going in a completely different direction. And so literally, my journey has been to apply breakaway thinking to basically everything, every challenge that that I had. And it starts with really simple concepts, right? Like looking for differences, not similarities, right? Creating stuff, not copying stuff. I mean, the world is replete with people that benchmark this and benchmark that under the guise of innovation, which I quite frankly, think is intellectually dishonest. How can you innovate when you're copying people? I mean, so. So what I do is my head juxtaposes things, which goes from tradition to what it needs to be, and I call it audacious leadership. That's what I've done. That's who I am. And I've had to work hard at getting things done. From a very practical point of view. I'm a practitioner, I'm not a theoretician. I don't believe you can formula rise, good execution at all, I got a real issue with academics that try and do that and fool people not fair. I come at it completely, completely different. Obviously, I don't get invited to talk to too many MBA classes with the attitude I've got, but that's okay. That's okay. You need an education, but you need a heck of a lot more to succeed. And so I was asked, at one point, to take over and lead the data and internet company that we were starting in telecom. And this is at the time where we're dial up internet and one and a half megabit speeds, were kind of like, the thing to cover it, right. Yeah, I know. So I was asked to take this on. And it forced me, it forced me to, to pursue the sort of basic drive that I have, which is to figure it out, figure out what works in the real world, figure out what's different, figure out how to adapt, how to recover when you make mistakes, how to change the culture. I mean, let's face it, the telecom world was a voice world. We had to move it into a data world it was dominated by engineering, we had to have it dominated by people that had customers and customer service and marketing and mindset. So no, I did not fall into anything. I worked through it. I pushed through it, and dug myself out of it, and around the organization. And I ended up as president of a wonderful company with great people. And I get goosebumps every time I think about this. We grew this company from startup to a billion in annual sales, Daniel and that gives me goosebumps every time I say it. That is amazing. That is amazing. That is not to be taken lightly. What is the timeframe from startup to billion in sales because a lot of people think it's like a lifetime. I mean, it could take a lifetime but it's escalates quickly when you're in a when you're in a business that can scale. Well, yeah, I mean, the timeframe It was was basically I would say, probably seven or eight years is what it was. Because don't forget, I mean, this this, this organization had a lot of voice traditional customers, and we were now suddenly thrust upon in a completely new environment, where we had to earn currency, we had to earn credibility. And, and I had 10,000 people in the organization. So this was not something that you know, you it wasn't a solopreneur opportunity where you can, you know, do stuff. So I had to work with unions, we had to work with, with cultures. And basically, I mean, the key for me was high tolerance for pain. By the way, I've learned pain is a strategic concept. Because when you're when you're on this journey to grow order of magnitude wise, you just run into all sorts of unexpected things that are are sent to stop you. I mean, that's it right? You got to push through it. And so we didn't know we were going to end up at a billion, what we knew was that the opportunity for us was huge. And so we set in place what I call a strategic game plan, which I had to create myself, by the way, you may, we may talk about that if you want. And we we just went year by year. And eventually, we look back and went, wow, look what we've done, guys, we've taken this thing, in very simple, non traditional ways, and created an amazing opportunity for employees and shareholders and customers alike. And I have to tell you, I'm grateful every day that I had the opportunity to be part of that it was just super good. No, it's an amazing story. Because a lot of people will think of I mean, a billion is a big number billion is a big number, especially years ago. I mean, it's kind of inflated a little bit that has the test progresses. But I mean, even I mean a billion is still a lot of money. And to be a part of that organization. It's it's huge. Because especially for so long, because you feel like you've built it from from the ground up, and you built it from the ground up, and you're part of every process of it. What is and you said you were the president of this company? Yes. Oh, my goodness, I can't. I can't imagine the stress and the painfulness of that he kind of mentioned that. As a leader operating at that level, how do you deal with everything? I could say employees, I can say business, I can say yes. Everything as a whole, because like, the pressure has got to be so immense, that it's unbearable for a lot of people. But what I've learned is that there's levels to this and what's what, what's the steps to get to that level to understand and bear that type of burden? Well, first of all, it never gets, it never gets to run itself. Okay, I mean, this, this kind of leadership in this kind of world, and it's even more significant now, okay, with with the amount of randomness and unpredictability is hitting businesses, you can never simply get it going and rely that it's going to keep going. Okay, that's an instant cure for death of any organization. But my approach to this was really simple. Have a strategy that was built to execute. And we can talk about that if you want, have that strategy and use that strategy as the basis for everything I did, as a leader. And I tagged that audacious leadership, the sorts of things that that that we did that I did specifically, weren't normal things. I mean, they weren't complicated, but they weren't normal. In fact, that's interesting, because a lot of people would say, Roy, I mean, come on. It's way too simple. So we've taught people to think that, you know, greatness is complex, which is ridiculous. Greatness is really simple, because it lights fires in people's stomach and gets them to do things that they otherwise wouldn't do. And so I was really focused, okay, so if you if you have a strategic game plan that's built around the ability to execute, right, like, I'm not talking about theoretically pristine, I'm talking about grounded in good business principles, but built to execute, because let's face it, I mean, the intellect really doesn't achieve anything. It doesn't, it gives you what's possible, what what gets you results, is actually doing stuff. And that's driven by passion and emotion, and so forth. And so I was that guy that was able to create direction, around igniting fires in people so that they wanted to do this, right. And that was all just driven by the desire to have a high performing organization. Because at the end of the day, if what you're doing isn't related to driving high performance in the bottom line, and you shouldn't be doing it. And so the sorts of simple Crazy things I did, people would often say, Well, Roy, yeah, just so they're kind of fancy and cool. And I said, No, no, no, no, no, don't ever think that I'm just doing it to be cute. I'm doing these things to drive performance. And if if it didn't, if they didn't drive performance, We wouldn't be doing them. And so I'm a simple guy. I understand people, I understand what motivates them. And I get driven by and focus on achieving results. And so that singular focus allowed me to actually get the job done. I'm not a to do list guy, Daniel, I hate to do lists, because typically you can't get anything done. You know, some people think, wow, I got a to do list of 20 things loopy, I'm really I'm really making a contribution. No, you're not. What it means is you don't understand the critical three things you need to do to achieve your strategy. That's what it means. So I'm the kind of guy that drives through to those essential things to do and get people to actually do them. That's as simple as it gets. And is there stress associated with that? Absolutely. Because you're pushing rope uphill, because you're fighting culture, you're fighting traditional norms, you're fighting inertia, you're fighting momentum that is going against you. Because if you want to be Breakaway, don't expect the past to help you. It doesn't. You have to, you have to almost create something new and it sounds like your job was motivational. You're motivated people and inspired people to do a good job to operate at the highest performance. So let's talk about that. What are some things that you did to inspire people because, as you know, and I've had employees, inspiring people to actually work and actually do good work is sometimes difficult. A lot of one thing is a clock in clock out type of thing. And I mean, I was I mean, I never was there personally as an employee, which is why my bosses love me, but I can never, I never wanted to excel past that point. Because I don't want to be a boss to have my own company build my own things. So what are some quick things to inundate people to do their best do their best job best work? Well, so I guess the first thing you need to do is you need to create a strategy building process that is made to execute, as opposed to serve, you know, other kind of like academic principles, they have you read the strategic planning doctrine out there. I mean, people get really happy because they've satisfied the theoretical pristineness. And the methodology in the paradigms of strategic planning, which I had no use for because it didn't, it didn't allow me to execute. So I created my own planning process, which is called strategic gameplan. process. I created that, okay, which allowed me to speak to people in terms of what they needed to do today differently than what they did yesterday, and ask them if they were cool with that. I mean, part of the part of a leaders job is to get people to buy into the vision if you can get them to buy into the game plan of the organization. And sometimes you've got to meet, you've got to mediate. And you've got to change that based on on their input, which I did all the time, because I didn't have the answers. Right? When it comes to serving customers. I mean, the people who are on the front line, and I spent probably at my any percent of my time as a leader with frontline people, okay, in the trenches, where it's messy, where there's a battle, that's where I was. And so it's no surprise that I was able to convince people based on on on that kind of leadership, to convince them that the journey we were on was a journey that was going to satisfy everybody. And so spending time with frontline people was absolutely critical. But I used to do other little things, which, which was kind of fun that always raised people's eyebrows, I, I decided that customer service was really, really important. And there were a few things that were preventing us from actually delivering superlative performance. And I call them dumb rules. And so I came up with this program called, we need to kill dumb rules. Now a dumb rule was an order was a rule of the organization or a policy that the organization had that made no sense to customers. In fact, all it did was pissed them off, okay. And they didn't like dealing with us because we had these stupid rules. It doesn't matter what they are, every organization has them, all you got to do is ask. And so I did. So I had a dumb rules committee set up, and it involved frontline people and other people in the organization. And the role of that committee was to seek out and destroy or otherwise change dumb rules. And I held my managers accountable for how I'm helping implement the suggestions, etc, etc. And I would be known to walk in the workplace every once in a while, with my white t shirt, with dumb rules on the front of the back of the big circle and an X through it, to show symbolically that what the journey we were on was really to cleanse the internal environment of things that didn't make sense for customers. Little things like that. Just lit fires in people they were so simple, and all it was was doing what frontline people and other employees in the organization knew is right all the all the time all along. This Secret was listening to them, Daniel's listening to them asking, How can I help? And when they tell you actually doing something about it. So my life, as an executive was less about setting direction and more about executing an imperfect strategy. And that's missing today. Because Because leaders tend to spend way too much planning, time planning 80% of their time is on planning 20% on execution. And in a world that's going to change on you every nanosecond, try to explain to me why we do that doesn't make any sense. I'm your let's head west guy. Right? My strategy is to head slightly West, and I'll figure it out along the way, where on the West Coast, we're going to end up, is it going to be LA? Or is it going to be Vancouver, we'll figure that out on the basis of what we learned through executing the kind of imprecise strategy that we set. And people really liked that they liked the simplicity. So most leaders aren't simple. And why? Because we teach that it's got to be complex. We teach that it's got to be driven by a formula. We teach all this stuff, and it's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. I created a billion dollars worth of wealth by doing stuff, exactly the opposite. So you can't convince me that the theoretical approach makes any sense at all. That's a, it's very, and I think, I think a lot of people, I mean, I think the problem is some leaders, they think they know it all. But you're gonna get the most feedback from the people actually do the work on the front end. So you got to take that feedback, and relay it and actually make change, because if you make it as difficult for them, then it probably will stick around and bounce around from position to position and job to job. So it's always listening to the the people that actually do the work. It's I'm really glad you said that, because that's one of that's one of the problems I had when I was in corporate America, because I knew it was wrong, because actually did the work. I knew it was wrong. And it was just like, this is not working. But you couldn't say nothing because your voice didn't matter. So they weren't asked, see a lot of people today talk about servant leadership, right? And they tag it as a leadership style. But it's not. It's a strategic act of leadership. And why is it strategic? First of all, I call it how can I help leadership? Right? I call leadership by serving around where the purpose is the ask how can I help you just describe what that looks like? And actually take, take that away personally, and get something done about it. Right. And so it's a strategic act, it helps aid execution. That's why we do it. It's not a management. It's another leadership style, the way it's talked about, right? In literature. It is a fundamental act of strategy that leaders must perform if they want to execute well, and drive high performance in the organization. I mean, I call it how can I help leadership and people loved it. But I'll tell you, it was hard. It was hard, because once you asked the question, then you had better deliver the answer. You had better deliver on what you promised. Because if you don't, you're done as a leader, you're done. And so you know, to your question earlier wasn't what were the hard things to do. It was like, once I heard what I needed to do, turning around to the rest of the organization, who, probably who were not on the same wavelength, and actually getting it done was exceedingly difficult. But that's just what the job was. And in the end, we we didn't get 100% of it done. But we got most of it done. Which helped us get the billion by the way, that business today is 15 billion. Like, we'll never look back. Who knows where it would have been. It's a ever changing world that seemed to how do you build an amazing brand? Well, again, I go back to the basic premise i i always operated from a strategic game plan. Okay, the strategy for the organization drove everything it drove what employee engagement had to look like. It drove what customer service had to look like. It drove what marketing had to look like, it drove what sales had to look like, and it drove our brand. I happen to be a guy that does not like the way branding is done these days. And let me explain why. Okay, okay. Most brands out there. And I'll, I mean, there's a whole bunch of examples all over the place. They rely on what I call claptrap. claptrap is an expression that uses words like better, best, number one, market leader, premium, all words that are meaningless to a customer, because there's no way to prove them. They're an expression of, of what you think about yourself in a way they're narcissistic. as hell, Daniel, when you say we are the best, and I just go BS, show me prove it right. So there's all this approach to brands. And if you look at them, do I have an example here of a brand? That's got claptrap? I don't have off offhand. But all you need to do is go Google brands. And every one you look at will will have some words like better best, blah, blah, blah, and famous brands. Okay. Think of you. Yeah, definitely. So I'm not saying that, that that, that the companies are unsuccessful because of that. What I'm saying is the companies are leaving money on the table because of that, because they're not making it easy for people to understand why they should be chosen, as opposed to somebody else. Okay. So I came up with this notion of the only statement. Now it's part of my strategic planning process that answers the question, how will you compete and win? So my answer to my own question is you need to be the only one that does what you do. Not better. Not best. Not number one, not the leader, the only. And so when I when I deal with clients around this, this is a really hard piece of work, because you need to craft what makes you special relative to the customers that you've chosen to serve. What makes you unique, why should I buy from you, as opposed to somebody else? Okay, like that, that claptrap statements don't answer that at all. They just make a ridiculous claim that says we're better without any proof points, the only statement goes, we are the only ones that bla bla bla bla bla. And I have a process to actually help people create that. The point is, when you get it, you have a statement, it's binary, it either exists or it doesn't exist, it can be observed, and it can be proven. And so my way of coming at branding is that and you can use it for personal brands you can use it for for corporate brands. Here's an example of where did I put it? Here's an example of a account of an only statement that I helped St. John Ambulance in British Columbia create in it says St. John Ambulance is the only first aid advocate that provides safety solutions anywhere, anytime. Now, that's pretty descriptive of what they do. And it's, it's, it's provable. Okay, like you can, you can either refute it or not, based on how you test it, we went through a huge testing process and so forth. And what we discovered is that the only statement addressed what the target customers cared about, and it was true. And there's a whole process that I used to go through that the point is, the brand is based on the only statement it's not based on aspirational thinking, or not narcissistic tendency of, of a company to think well of themselves. Because at the end of the day, if you can't prove it to customers, then you're done. And so that's my approach to branding only statement. Now it happens to be that my new book called be different or be dead the audacious unheard of ways I took a startup to a billion in sales is hitting the markets on May the 31st will be available to people talks extensively about this because it is so important more today, Daniel than ever. Because mediocrity in the branding world is going up, it's not getting better in my, in my opinion. Others may disagree with that. And so, yeah, I'm spending a whole lot of time talking about the importance of it, talking about how to do it, and what Roy's rules of creating the only look like and it's and people are loving it. Because it's so simple, right? So simple. The I was I was taking notes because that was such a powerful statement of the only because there's a lot of customers or a lot of people that do might do what you do, but you might be the only one that does this certain thing. And it cuts right through. That was that was perfection right there. So I'm already thinking of ads in my head to use this because I'm an action taker. I'm not I don't I don't just listen. So a lot of the stuff that I take in like that right there is the whole interview. I mean, we'll get into right here in a bit but I don't want to but that was That was so good. That was so good to cut through the noise because when you when you mentioned as far as like large companies doing like, Oh, we're the best at this and I'm like, like I hated that marketing, but I never could figure out what what was the reason? And it was narcissistic, but that was that was the reason. It's the ultimate branding statements are the ultimate manifestation of narcissism. That's a royal quote. Okay, and it's true But it's absolutely true. And just I can just pull them out. I mean, they're they all do it. And I think I think I think the reason is that the owners of branding, okay, are our marketing communication dudes buried in an organization? who are using their marketing 101 principles? Yeah, it's not about that. Okay, because nobody talks about the only except me. I'm the only one that talks about the only. That's my only statement. Nobody else talks about that. And I'll tell you why they've never had to run a billion dollar your organization? Show me one prof that has. But wow, they're viewed as experts on this. And the reality is, with all due respect, they're not. And so what we need to do is cut the clutter. You and I, and we need to be out there beating the airwaves about the only statement, because I'm glad you picked up on it. Everybody does. And I'm happy. That's why I'm grateful to be here with you. Because it gives us a chance to change the conversation out there, right? Yeah, yeah. That was those those really good, I'm really excited already have as I was having my graphics person to make some only statements. So so my offer here is and to everybody out there, you draft up your only, you can send it to me on roi.osen@gmail.com. And I will happily give you a perspective on how I feel about it. Because I do a lot of that. Okay, it's like use me as a resource is pay it forward, I know this stuff, send it to me, I'll help you. That's amazing. I really want to get to the juices, but do you have any other statements like that, that kind of cut through the noise? Because that was such a good one? Um, nothing, nothing is profound, okay, like that, that that is rooted in, in the strategy development process that I created. And it but it's not a silver bullet. Okay. I mean, there's a lot of other things that we did that that were, quote, smaller perhaps, and yet, just as influential. And let me give you a couple of examples. I happen to be an advocate of do it yourself leadership. Now, most people are upset about that, because everybody's been taught that we need as leaders to delegate. Right? And so what happens is every leader delegates everything. Well, I happen to be a contrarian, as you probably have got already from this interview. I'm a contrarian about most traditional things. And one of them happens to be delegation. I believe in Do It Yourself leadership, because delegation, okay, is another way, it can be another way of abdicating your responsibilities of a leader, you delegate and walk away. There are some things that can be delegated. Daniel, okay. But there's also some strategic things that the leaders should never delegate, and I call it you need, you need leaders to put their fingerprints on the things that are really essential to strategy, they should not be delegated. And let me give you an example. One of the things that I did is I helped craft with the frontline people, what the customer moment looked like, what are the behaviors that frontline people need to exhibit when engaging with a client or a customer to actually dazzle them to blow them away? Right, because that's that drives informs loyalty. And so I was intimately involved in defining and architecting that moment, people thought I was crazy, ROI, that's something you should delegate to your frontline management. Are you kidding me, this is a central part of prodigy, I own it, I'm going to be involved in and I'm not abdicating it to frontline management, because all that does is increase the noise and increase the disk continuity in the business, because they're going to come up with their own definition. And it probably won't be the same as mine, because I own it. And so there was a pile of little things like that. So I call it do it yourself. I had a bunch of things associated with that. Another thing that worked really well for me is what I ended up calling hiring for goosebumps. So this is a really interesting one that basically led me to ask the question of prospective candidates who wanted the job in the company in my company to ask them the question, do you like human beings? Now they were a little taken aback. First of all, that I was actually as president of the company, interviewing them for a frontline job or whatever job it was. You see, the rationale was you can't love customers if you don't like your your your employees, if you don't like people. If you're not a people person, how on earth can you ever, you know, deliver superlative customer service, you know, if you want to if you want to write HTML code, that's fine, but I'm sure as hell not going to put you into a position of dealing with my most precious asset called the customer. So here's so my objective became or challenge became how can I identify people They had this innate desire to actually serve people and it because they liked them. So I came up with this silly little thing called hiring for goosebumps. So I would ask you, Daniel, do you love human beings? So you would know, it's a trick question. You just know where I was going. Right. So I would ask the next question. And I would say, because you would say, yes, yes, Roy, I do. I love human beings. I said, Okay. Tell me a story. That would show me how much you love Homo sapiens. And you would tell me a story. Now, if you really didn't believe it, or intellectually got where I was going, you'd give me a story that it wasn't very compelling. I'd feel like a fish, right? It would, you know, and I'd show you out the door, the person that really got it that really, really did have this innate desire would tell you a story that was rich and deep and passion, passionate and emotional. And guess what it would do, it would leave me with ghosts, I hired that person. So that's Roy's recruiting, I changed the complete recruiting methodology in my organization, to be more responsive to try and like I can teach you about data, I can teach you about IP. But what I can't teach you is to like and care for human beings, I can't teach you that I can teach you to grin, I can teach you to, to answer a phone with smile in your face, Daniel, I cannot teach you to love me. So what I got to do is I gotta hire somebody that has a natural God given innate desire to do it anyways. And I'll teach them the data business, that's what I did. They, then man, that is, as you're on a roll, that was a good one, too, because a lot of people think they can train it in. But if you really want the best expertise, and the best people on their frontline, you need to have it already. You need to have it, they just need to have that ability, whatever that whatever it is, you're hiring, they didn't have that ability. This is what every business, every business needs to have, needs to deliver customer experiences that are absolutely brilliant, they do. Okay, because literally, it's not people don't buy the product, they buy the culture of the organization that stands behind the product that will fix it when it's wrong, right, that will make it easy for you to do business with that's a cultural thing. I can I can buy a smartphone anywhere. Okay, it's not it's not the gimmicks, it's not the functionality that differentiates. So I buy a culture and most people do. So how you treat people is a huge piece of culture that gets forgotten about, right? It does, it does, it's just like teach the person, the fundamentals of the product and services, etc. And yet, there's this whole context within which they work. It's really drivers of loyalty, referrals, retention, all that kind of stuff. And I tended to go there, right, I tended to go there. Because if you're halfways, intelligent, I'm going to you're going to be able to learn, you know how the iPhone works or how the smartphone works with but what you're not going to, what you're not going to learn is this natural ability, that when a customer comes in, to take care of them, to show empathy to them, to respond to them, write everything, those are things that, in terms of my experience, are fundamental fabrics of somebody's DNA. And the challenge for us is to recruit into that, and then teach them the business. So almost like it's almost like, here's a culture transpose transpose the culture. So what business are you in? I'm in the customer service, culture business. I'm not in the telecom business. So if I create a culture that delivers that I can transpose that into any business, financial, right, retail, hospitality, and that's the kind of mentality I had, I didn't do all of that stuff, but I'm pretty sure Richard Branson does, that's that's his fundamental mentality, take customer service, push it high, you know, buy a business, and inject that into it. And it works. It really works. So let me ask you about this. So you're talking about customer service, you have people that love people, what do you look for when you're hiring sales? People, same thing, because I don't believe that you need sales. Sales sales is not sales is a means to an end or sales is the end of a process. It's a sales process. You see, the problem is most salespeople are product floggers. Okay, sales is a flogging profession these days. And don't tell me that it's based on relationships because I look at behavior. And I look at compensation plans. Salespeople today are comped on how many units of stuff they sell, generally speaking, right? And so it's not their fault. They do. They do what they're paid to do. Sales should be in the serving business and the purchase of The transaction should be viewed as the result, right of a process of serving a client. It shouldn't be what what you drive down their throat, and yet look at. I mean, I detest most sales processes because they're in your face drive and stuff at me. And unfortunately, that does nothing to enhance how I feel about the organization. In fact, that just makes me mad. And and it makes me feel the feel bullied. Okay, so my view is really simple is that we need to start out with the premise that sales are here to serve. If they serve well, their reward is a transaction. But that's not the going in purpose. Right. And today, we got this huge chasm that exists between the wait typically and I'm generalizing a bit, but I'm, I'm on solid ground here, just walk into any store and figure it out. The chasm that exists between traditional sales which is pushing product, and the new sales, Breakaway sales, which is serving people and accepting a reward for having done that job. Well. That's my view of sales. Okay, okay. I have another question. How did you find leaders in organization? Did they kind of represent themselves on the way up? Or was it one of the things where you hired leadership off the off the ground floor? What kind of, I mean, for me, it was kind of a combination. Okay, like, I had a way of figuring out who the high potential people were in my organization, and who demonstrated on a consistent day to day basis, the kinds of behaviors that that I thought we needed, coupled with the results. So it wasn't just behavior. I mean, you had to tie the two together, right? It's, so you got somebody driving amazing results, and exhibiting the behaviors, one explains the other, you can also get the situation where you get, you know, mediocre results and bad behavior, etc. But my high potential program was fueled with people that basically understood what we were trying to achieve and exhibited the behaviors required to get there. And and to the extent, I mean, I honestly had a bias for wanting to stay inside I really did, because they got what we were trying to do the understand the strategy, and, and that was good. Sometimes I couldn't do that. Alright, had to go outside to bring in different different competencies. Because don't forget, we were changing cultures, we were going from an old telecom world into a new IP based environment. And so you had to mix. But I was I was always had my hands on people. I always did, I always knew, who were the high potential movers and shakers in the organization. And I made a point of staying in touch with them, staying close to them, learning about them. So that when I had to make a decision, I had like 10 people sitting there that I could choose from, which was quite, quite gratifying to be honest. Yeah. So you almost like nurtured them to an extent where when the opportunity presented itself, you already knew who the pool was, and should have sorted out at that point? Yep. Yep. Yeah, it's, it's one thing, it's one thing to heart, it's difficult to hard. It's hard to find good leaders sometimes, because not everybody understands the mission. And they might not resonate with it either. So you have to have a large amount of people that are participating. And then you kind of sorted out from there. Well, for me, for me, when you look inside, if somebody didn't understand the strategic game plan, they were never considered. I mean, that's pretty fundamental. How can you actually ever want to be considered in a leadership position? When you can't identify with the strategy, the organization? mean, that tells me you're lazy? You're stupid, one or the other? Right? You should know it. Okay. And you should. The other concept that I came up with is what I call line of sight leadership. Like, it's one thing to know what the strategy is, it's another thing to be able to translate that strategy into every function in your business. Right? And so for example, what does what does a customer service rep have to do on a day to day basis to actually serve the strategy? Do they have a direct line of sight to that strategy? Do they understand it? That was my job as a leader to explain that, and to work with him to actually figure it out? What do I have to give up? What do I have to take on all those dynamics? And, and my direct report team, if they if they weren't able to do that? It would tell me that either they, they they didn't know how to do it, which I didn't accept or they didn't really get the strategy, which I didn't accept either. So it was a major issue for me. The translation part of great Leaders gets forgotten. It gets buried in the need to delegate Daniel, that's the problem. Right? Why should I? Why should I translate? When I'm supposed to delegate and all books tell me to desert delegate? Well, this book tells you not to delegate, this book tells you be strategic on that, right? Make a difference, put your fingerprints on it, right, that's what you're getting paid for. Digging a little bit deeper, our whole thing is like, we do a lot of automation. So let's say one of the things where we try to automate a lot of the processes. So even where people do jump in, they're doing less of what they normally would do in general. So we try and automate a lot of our processes. And as a whole, but one things you always can't automate as a customer service, customer service is always going to be there and sales are always going to be there. Well, there are I mean, look at look at how our AI is being used, though. Okay. I mean, I can't look at you try and convince me that a chatbot helps me be passionate about an organization. Okay, because here's another great example, right? Of using algorithms based on somebody's perception of what customers need. Okay? The reality is, normally, when I have an issue on a webpage, it's not, it's not one of the 100,000 people that have already captured in the formula or algorithm. It's something different. So a chatbot, in that sense, is frickin useless. Okay, and trying to automate that to a degree might make sense. But you better allow you better allow the capability for the customer to get the heck out of that process. I mean, I've been on webpages with no telephone numbers. No, I'm sorry, I may be an older dude. But I'm totally into engagement. And if you actually, if you're actually crazy enough to think you can automate every aspect of customer demand, then you're insane. Yeah, and yet, and yet, my observation is, when I look at how AI is going, that's exactly the end result. And so my conclusion is, first of all, it'll never be achieved. And so it's really for automation. My view is you need to be selective. If you can automate the things, right that don't require don't require that sort of personal engagement, right to build loyalty, if you can automate that stuff. And if the customer agrees that it's okay. You see, because you never asked them. You just do your right. Ask them. And if they're okay with it, fine, do it. But if they tell you, Daniel, no, no, no, no, no, no, let me tell you, we're okay with this process. No, I need an I need an out channel. I need to I need to be able to do this, then. I mean, if you're serious about service, and you're not blowing smoke up my butt, you need to listen to that. Yeah, I used to have customers on a panel to review what we do for them. Process wise, you know, we weren't obviously in the AI world. And so our level of mechanizing was different. But it was still, in principle, the same thing we're talking about. User feedback is essential. Yeah. And so, I mean, I don't know about you, but I really get cheesed off. When I sit on the end of a telephone, for example, trying to get to a call center, and keep hearing these recordings, tell me not to hang up, because my call is important to them, even though I've been there for 5560 minutes. Yeah. Now there's an example though, okay, of where I like automation. Because the people that come back to me and say, Hey, listen, on the recording, hey, listen, you're gonna be here for an hour, right? If you'd like to keep your place in line, and we'll call you back, give us your telephone number, I don't mind that. I really don't mind that. And that level automation. For me, at least, it may not be for somebody else. But for me, it works, except if I'm really heavily under pressure, and I can't take a call at anytime during the day. And so the issue for you guys, is to make some sort of an assessment, okay, in the realm of delivering memorable customer experiences, how do you think automation of a number of those processes will influence that? Will Will it contribute to it? Will it contribute here or detract here, you need to know that as opposed to just blindly flogging the automation process, it's kind of like selling in a way flogging it in there hoping that it's not going to create a problem. And my sense is that's a lot of that happens. And it does create a problem and everybody knows that going in, but it's not accommodated. I don't know. Well, you haven't. You can be an enlightened one, my friend by doing it this way, we layer in we layer in conditional logic. And we layer in automation with that. So people are like, Oh, this is some perfect example, our clients message us and like, Oh, this is a robot responding like, oh, yeah, it's a robot. And I'll kind of like mock them a little bit, and tease them a little bit shocking. It's not automation. But it's one of those things where I can interest interject at any moment, and break that break that line, but the thing is automation. So it's one of the that's one of the cool things that we do. And kind of I think, I think it kind of separates, and it helps ease the ease the client in a way, because it's not so direct, because everything everybody thinks about automation these days in some way. Well, I think the process has got the accent on the wrong salobre. Okay. So for example, it's more about let's automate, and then figure out, you know, around that, where we need other kinds of interaction, as opposed to say, what interaction do we need to drive memorable experiences? Okay, and that's, that's the vital layer, the residual, why don't we look at that, and automate that? So that's a much more logical process, in my view, okay, because that's not the push process. The push process process says, automate, this doesn't this has a higher order objective, which is based on the experience, and then ask the question, okay, what contributes to memorable experiences? And what is what does that other layer where it's not critical? And yeah, we can automate that, and facilitate that and do whatever we have to there. But that that that top layer, that's vital for moments of truth. I mean, in a way, it's like with Tony Shea, I don't know if you remember him. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us used to be the CEO of Apple's right shoe company in Las Vegas. His view was was unfortunately, he's no longer with us. But his view was around call centers that you that you never outsource that, that that was such a vital component to delivering what he called happiness. That's that was the culture he was trying to create, which translated into amazing service experiences for his customers. He said, No, no call centers should never be managed, from the point of view of a cost to be controlled, you need to manage those assets as a loyalty creator. And so he insourced them against what most of the world does right now is they outsourced call centers, right, to every part of the world based on driving unit cost down, he took the opposite approach and said, If I'm going to deliver happiness to my customers, I need to own the call center. That's sort of what I'm talking to you about here. If you want to deliver and own the customer experience, there are certain functions, you should not automate. Figure that out first, then look at the residual and automate that. If you don't do it that way, then don't you ever tell me that you're interested in delivering memorable experiences? Because you're lying in my face? Done, boom, right? No, simple, irrefutable truth. Staniel. And I know it's hard to answer the question, but what is a quote that is yours or somebody else's that you resonate with? That's probably your own, your only one. Might my own a quote that I have, or a quote that somebody else has. It's either yours or somebody else's? Well, you're probably too young to remember this. But one of the one of the most significant mentors I had was the Grateful Dead Now do you remember the Grateful Dead? So you probably don't, I'm aware they're a rocket. So they are their 60s, kind of or band. And they were the most most famous profitable touring band in history, Rock Band in history. It wasn't, you know, the stones and The Beatles, and all these other kinds of bands are grateful dead. The thing that they had was a leader called Jerry Garcia, who was not only a great guitar player, he was an amazing business person. And they've written books about this, I'd suggest you check it out. They've got a book that I love, called the marketing lessons from the Grateful Dead. And these guys in a world with no social media, no technology, right? They created fans, they created this, this experience based culture, call around deadheads if you're a fan, that that made them very successful. Jerry Garcia said something that I found out about only after I did my only work, and it sort of told me I was on the right path. And he said, you don't want merely to be the best of the best. You want to be the only ones that do what you do. That credo drove of the Grateful Dead to be truly amazing. And it also separated Garcia for most business leaders, just the vision he had, like, like, you know what he did, he actually created infrastructure, right at his concerts. And that would allow people to come in and record their music. Now, this was at a time when people didn't want to share anything, right, like patents and, and rights were so important. And Jerry said, Hey, this is ridiculous. But let's share our music and somebody records it, guess what they're going to do with that? They're going to share it with their friends. And God, that's got to be good. Somewhere along the line. Why would I worry about REITs? And in the face of that he was contrarian, went in there, and the rest is history. And in fact, you just you go on you Google the grateful dead's website, they're still selling merchandise, my friend. I mean, what an amazing machine just based on catering to what people cared about, and how they were how they wanted to feel about music and things like that simple, simple things that resonate with people and create economic success. We've got away from that. We need to get back to it. And that expression, that phrase that that quote, has, it's always with me, always with me. And I love the Grateful Dead music. And you're a real deadhead. No, that's, that's amazing. I think it's, whenever I think about branding back then, it's so much it's so easy nowadays, so easy with technology. But to do it back, then it's got to be amazing. Because like, I always think of like Michael Jackson, because Michael Jackson was literally the biggest superstar ever, ever. And he was back at his back at that time where it was, how do you how do you how do you how do you build this thing that no one even it's never built before, you know, you're really trailblazing and creating new, everything new marketing strategies, new new content creation strategies like this. It's amazing. It's amazing to think about, I'm really glad that because I never heard of that story before. That's really well the other one, the other one that I really like, is I'm an absolute fan of Lady Gaga. She, as a leader is, is amazing. When you look at her story, she sort of like got the intuition of what I just described in a more current world in terms of fan centric behavior. Okay, all that kind of stuff. She's amazing as well. But there's a lot of people who, who just, you said an interesting phrase, it's so easy. And in part, that's part of the problem. Yeah, it is easy. And an ease sometimes is assumed to be right. And sometimes it is, and sometimes it's not. And I just would would urge people to start out with figuring out what is right, and then look at technology. Don't don't use social media the way everybody else does, just because you think it's right, or, or the proponents, or the advocates of the platform, say the right figure out what you want to do first, and then ask yourself the question, what's the role of social media? So that first piece, in my opinion, rarely gets done with the due diligence and the effort that it requires that strategy in my world, but that game plan should drive and inform everything you do? Everything? Nothing should be bottoms up, it should all be tops down. Unless you want a dysfunctional organization, of which there are millions. And I keep, I keep saying I think I know why. So like I I constantly get asked opinions about things that I simply say I have no opinion, Roy, what do you think about this, this communications plan that this company is putting in place? What do you think about the social media strategy that they've got? And I keep saying, I don't know. The reason I don't know is I don't know what they're trying to achieve. I don't know the strategy of the organization. I don't know the game plan that the organization has an unless I know that I can't give you an interpretation. Because I'm really good at translating, or associating action with a with a game plan. I can tell you whether you're on strategy or off, but I need that game plan. That's the anchor, you need to have one everybody needs to have one. And it needs to be constantly refreshed, and driven down to minuscule details, because that's how you make it execution oriented. Right? There's too many people acting just at the tactical level. I ran into one last night at a at a meet up I was doing and she says well, I'm into social media. And I said, Oh good. I said what are your clients do and all while they're adopting all the modern social media, etc. I said, Do you know what their strategies are? And she said, Well, no, we haven't figured that out yet. If you missed the boat, then I have a hard time with that man. Just keeping my mouth shut is really hard. Well, I think you're very in tune to what's going on. And I, I commend you for that because not not calling me old or anything but my parents, my parents struggle with technology. Yeah, they struggle. They struggle with it. And it's just one of those things where I've talked to people that never adapted to the change, and they got left behind so fast. It's true. Well, I'll tell you one thing, I'm really happy. I have four grandchildren just to keep it real. And my youngest grandchild three days ago opened the Tick Tock account under audacious ways, and it's my account. So she is hell bent on getting me into Tik Tok. And already, she's posted a video with some of my expressions on if you go to my unheard of ways Instagram account, what I try and do is make my content real by just posting expressions in quotes, etc. So she went into my Instagram account, grabbed some stuff off, bang, put it on a on a on a reel. And then she phoned me the next day and says, Papa, we got 500. We got 500 likes or poll or whatever the hell you call views, and 35 likes and I said, is that good? And she says, yes, it's really good. So I'm trying, I'm struggling sometimes, Daniel, but I'm trying to keep up with it. Alright, just trying to keep up with it. I mean, it sounds like you're you have a social media manager already. That's right. She's, I should tell her she's my vice president social media. She'll go, what's that? The boss of the internet? That's right. That Supreme Commander of all that is cyber. Given positions, I think it's, it's one thing that's I think what and towards this is that younger generations have a leg up because they were born into this world. Like me, I turned 30 this week. And I've seen the transition from the 90s to the 2000s, where cell phones weren't even I mean, cell phones were big, literally big back then. And they kind of transition to small, smaller. And now now we have something crazy, that wasn't even thing. Whereas people born in 2000s there, they're born into technology. 100%. So they understand, I watched tick tock about how kids are taking tests online. And they're looking at the back end code to find out the right answer versus actually knowing the answer. So it's one of those things where, like, there, you literally have to change how you do things, because, yeah, now we can put it online, but they can look at the inspect the code and see what the answer is. So now it's, it's not even education at this point. Well, you know, I mean, it's a classic example of what what we were discussing earlier about, about being infatuated with, with a technology in the bottom, the base level, tactical tools that we have, and not at the higher level purpose that they are intended to achieve. It's like every, it's total infatuation. And and I see that all the time, in people asking questions like, Well, how should I use this? How should I use that? And I keep saying, Well, I don't know, you need to tell me what you're trying to achieve. And so I apply some rigor there, you know, to try and get a really crystal clear view as to what the strategy is. Now, most people, they don't want to take the time to do that they'd rather play with infatuation. And I don't mean that in a in an unkind way. It's, that's just the way it is right now. But my, I don't know, my drive and doing what I'm doing here with my work, etc, is to try and shift that around a little bit and least get people asking the question, why are we doing this? What's the intended purpose? Are we actually achieving our goals? Simple questions. And it confuses people and it frustrates them because they've been taught to operate at that tactical level. That's where the joy comes from. That's where the joy of being on tic tac comes and tick tick tock comes from not How the hell should I be using it? What's what part of the strategy does it serve like for me, it won't serve any I'm doing it because my granddaughter so it serves a different purpose, my relationship with my grandkids, which is exceedingly important, right? And so I just choose to do things differently for them. would be hard pressed to say this is going to add a lot of a lot of value to my business. What we'll find out eventually, maybe, eventually, it's well, it's one of those things where I see social media has a be consistent. Don't expect results day one because It's not never gonna happen day one. And it's something that it's a long term play to give you a digital footprint. And that's how I see podcasting. And all the social media do in general is out, and we're heading to a digital age. So I want my digital presence to be so large, you can't help but look at us. Yeah, and you see interesting, just the way you talk about it is not consistent with the way I think. Right? I do, I do what I'm doing here for a very specific reason, it's got nothing to do with podcasting. It's got to do with, with, with a channel, right, that I can I can push my voice through to try and change the conversation in the world. Because you have access to people I can't get access to see you, as a vehicle, for me are extremely important and extremely necessary. With what I'm trying to achieve. That's why I'm doing this. It's not it's not for any digital reason. It's got nothing to do with, with being able to say I've done X number of PA, it's got nothing to do with that. If I didn't feel the talk, and you was helpful, in terms of my my journey to change the conversation in the world around being different, then we wouldn't be having having the conversation. And unfortunately, I don't, I guess I don't think that having a huge digital footprint, you'd have to convince me that that's going to help me do it either. That is the same thing. I don't know, I haven't thought about it before. I will based on on what you just said, but it's not my natural go to logic. That's different. And maybe it's another conference is definitely another conversation. But it's a it's, it's for me, it's intuitive, because people, people nowadays they, I'm gonna Google royal Singh, I'm gonna Google it and see what comes up. So having that Google global power is powerful in itself, because I was I was at an event and I'm like, Oh, how do I get a car to like, just google me? I'm on Google. And maybe, maybe I'm expressing it wrong, because the way you're describing it is definitely consistent with with my thinking, like I am, I'm totally out there in terms of, there's only one me. And if you want me, you get a lot of stuff. So there's a lot about me, on the internet, there's tons. I don't really think about it, though, the way you just described it. You know, I just, I may get the same result, I just don't think about it that way. I just keep doing it. I know, I know that getting onto the internet in various avenues and using various channels. I know that's the right thing to do. And maybe it's just maybe it's just a different language approach to describing the benefits, maybe I don't know. Yeah. Like I said, it's, I'm not saying you're wrong, or I'm right. It's one of those things where like, I mean, Daniel Martinez have a very popular name. So I have to distinguish myself amongst all the noise because I have a popular name. So whenever I use my name, in general, I use my middle name, because my middle name is what differentiates me from all the other Daniel Martinez is out there. So it's one of those things where, like, it's really hard when you have a, you're John Smith, like, it's, you're gonna have to break through a lot of noise, just to break through at any point. In general, you have a very popular name. So it's, it's, it can be difficult for some people to cut through the noise in the online space because you have a very popular date. Whereas like, there's, there's only one be different or be dead out there. There's only one royal sing out there. So I don't have a problem that way. There are so a few things I've discovered actually, they must be related. I had no idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, this is like, it's, I guess, this Hispanic thing for me, because like, my brother, Jose, he has like, he got somebody, he almost got arrested because somebody had a warrant out with his name. You know, it's one of those things were like, No, I've been in this address forever. Like, that's not me. Like, you have to separate yourself from everybody else because you have a very popular name and it's it's frustrating. No, you're absolutely right. The cutting through the clutter takes a lot of a lot of different approaches. But it actually in for you, you guys who are in the podcast business, and I've done a number of them. So I'm, I'm sort of getting a little more familiar with the kinds of challenges that you have. Having a having a game plan that actually informs how you differentiate using an only statement is critical for you. Your name is part of that mix, but it starts So with, okay, you're one of I don't know, how many podcasts out there? What's what's, how many are in the same space that you are in? And how are you differentiating from those? Not the market in general, but just those people in your same space? And then how can you leverage your name within that? I mean, kind of like goes conjunction with state step by step process and eventually yields you with the right information, you need to actually get an only statement and get it done. Though only statement is so powerful, and I think we'll end with there because that is, that has been the key round with this conversation. And I'm going to find a way to put it in the title too. I want you to do that. And let me give you the title. Okay. Roy, is the only one who does what he does. listen in. Alright, you go something like that. I mean, I haven't been that I should suggest to you what the title is. But, but you know, what, the more focus we can get. And I say we because, you know, I mean, I'm looking for help I'm looking for, for advocates of my work. And to the extent that I can get more advocates, I get more minds, that I can help shape towards something that I think is important, particularly now, having my first book be differently. I wrote Daniel in 2009, it's 13 years out there. And yet your content. And this is an updated version, which is coming out on May the 31st. The basic content has been updated, and given it a little fresh, fresher repeal. But the fundamental principles haven't changed. I mean, here's some content that's had a shelf life of 13 years and is even more important today than it was in Oh, nine. I mean, that's, that's pretty. I mean, that's staggering to me, when I never even realized that. And so somebody told me that that's one interpretation of your, of my work, you're creating a legacy, and you want people to carry on the legacy. Boom. That's exactly right. That's exactly what I'm trying to do. Thank you for that. I appreciate that perspective. Yep, I reckon I recognize it because it's something that I have the same mission as, as, as a producer in the world, is I want to produce something and create a legacy that lives beyond me. Because if my reach and my voice is ever heard, in generations to come, which is why I put myself digitally, digitally on the internet space is because I'm trying to create and and I'd rather create, create something than just consume it. So I'm trying to create my own my own lane and create legacy. Now, hopefully, this beyond me and my kids, my kids carry, while you're actually you're, you're I think you're doing more than that you're actually creating experiences. When you talk to somebody, you're actually in the process of that engagement. It's an experience for people to witness. I mean, that's that's incredibly powerful way to look at your business like it's it's information content, but it's really a show and it's really an experience that will create certain kinds of feelings for people that will make them grateful that will make them happy will make them angry will make them disagreeable, whatever, but it's going to it's going to create a response and that's a power that's that's a power not to be taken lightly. And by the way, just for the record, I think you're doing a really nice job I'm quite enjoying this and I think you're you're great at what you do. I'm the only one that enjoys doing what I do. Okay, that's a start. I mean, it was off the cuff. I mean, I'm just learning this over the last hour so this give you a break. I know we appreciate your time I'm gonna put your book up for everybody listening it is the difference. Or dead is the difference will be dead.com be different or be dead. I am. I am not a reader. But I'm trying to be so I bought a book last night and I'm gonna try and read it and I bought the audiobook too because I struggle with it. So I'm gonna read it while I listen to it as what I heard people do these days. The book is out the printed version will be out on the 31st of May so it's close up. May 31 be different or be dead. I love I said no, you're a dead head fan because even put it in your name. A resume everything you do. Yeah, like skulls? I mean, the skulls and that sort of stuff? Yeah. Well, you know, the original idea I had was, be different or be dead is a strategic name. It's a strategic title, because it's really saying, if you're not different, you're dead or soon will be is kind of like the other way I talked about that, that your surgeon will be as in bracket. So it's like the ultimate consequence of not being different, is being dead. And if you look around, particularly over the last number of years, you will find that the companies that go out of business, okay, have lost their relevance. They're irrelevant. They're not different. They're part of the herd, they're part of the crowd, so they die. I mean, and today, it's even, I think, more intense, because there's more competition, there's more businesses, the internet is fueled, like, you know, millions of millions of businesses, so the need to differentiate is greater now than it's ever been. My conclusion, however, is in the face of that business is doing more mediocre job than ever before. Hence, my my angst and my drive, spread the word about the only statement and the need to be different. That's amazing. All right, we're gonna have to hear all right. dad.com, go get the book, May 31. Go check it out. I will buy the book. Because I, I resonate with the statement, and I want to help carry on the legacy because I feel the power of it. And I recognize the power in the only statement. So I like I like thank you, Daniel. Appreciate it. Appreciate your time, Roy. And hopefully we'll have a conversation in the future about how we're going to use the only statement to build our brand. That would be great. And thank you for having me, Daniel. I've enjoyed it. And I'm grateful to be able to touch your audience. So thanks, appreciate it. No problem.