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Aug. 17, 2022

Ep 223: Tax Free Wealth With Carl Fischer

Ep 223: Tax Free Wealth With Carl Fischer
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0:00 Hey, welcome today. This is Daniel Martinez, we have a special guest today covering a unique subject that I like learning about has to do with real estate. But we have a special guest, Mr. Carl Fisher. Now where are you from conference? What country are you from? What part of the country you live in? 0:15 I basically live in Florida. I grew up in Florida, I went to school in upstate New York at Cornell University, graduated from there, and then went to Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, and launched rockets for almost 20 years, cut my teeth on the shuttle program, doing the r&d, et cetera. And then part of the launch team. 0:42 That's so quite a story. 0:46 Yeah. Wow. And all along, I was doing real estate because my mom and dad were in it, and their mom and dads were in it as well. 0:54 So third generation, that's a long time, long time. Yeah. Some time. So let's talk about like, so I kinda want to touch on the subject, because a lot of people struggle with this, or especially like people that have jobs. So what was it like having a full time job, especially at this space, canonization and growing real estate, because a lot of 1:18 people think we can do both? Well, yeah, that's kind of interesting, because when I got out of school, one of the things I hated was the fact that I didn't get a summer vacation. You know, they limited me to two weeks of vacation. And when I was, you know, growing up with my mom and dad, we would go to the Jersey Shore, some other places, my dad would fly back every now and then. But basically, we celebrated summer as a family, you know, almost three months in different places. And then when I was young, he would, you know, stop by the Post Office Box, tell me to go in there and get the mail at the first of the month, and I'd pick up a bunch of envelopes with checks in them. And then I would bring them back and fill out the deposit book and put the money in the bank. So I learned that, you know, and I just thought my dad, you know, went to different events with, you know, at school, etc. And, you know, but that was my first time education on what a lot of people call mailbox money, I had actually, I'd actually experienced it. So I knew that you could do both of them at the time. At the same time. I also knew that you didn't need money. I, you know, fell into it with you know, owner financing was a lot of ways that people in the real estate world did their did their deals. So it was it was it was pretty simple to to work and do real estate. If you think about it, the way I like to hear it was, you know, my dad said, Well, you go talk to a tenant, and you might spend a half an hour and a half an hour on the paperwork. And then the next time you hopefully the next time you have to talk to them, is when you renew his lease in a year. So you're basically getting, you know, $1,000 Check for 12 months for talking to somebody for an hour. So that was, you know, an education for me and a thought process that was there. And the other thing I found out was when I was in school, I would negotiate the houses for rent, you know, when we would do a group ski trip. You know, if we had myself and 10 others, I would split the price among the other 10 Because I did the negotiating. And I basically get to go for free because I negotiate my price off of the offer the value, and everybody was happy with it. So I mean, you just learn from being in the business and I guess, you know, hot dog makers learn from their parents movie stars learn from their parents. So just being around it. I think I learned from it. 4:18 Well, I think it's definitely good education. It's really kind of interesting to use your negotiation tactics to get free vacations. I think I think it's a once we once you become real estate and start using that negotiation bug. You start using it everywhere. And it comes out and comes out in different places that you wouldn't expect it. But I think negotiating a free ski trip is definitely up there. 4:41 Yeah, well, I mean, it was it was free from the round. I still had to pay my own lift tickets, you know? 4:46 Oh, man. I guess he guess he got better with age. 4:50 Yeah, right. Exactly. 4:54 You couldn't you couldn't get it off for free. That's it's an amazing story. I think I think it's cool. I hope to have my kids have the same story you do as far as in the in the real estate world behind me and experiencing that, just because it opens, it opens up to a lot of opportunity that not a lot of people get to see me. And it's kind of cool to experience that. So, um, 5:19 yeah, but let's not, you know, let's give him a fair understanding of it, too. Yeah, on holidays when a toilet backs up, and there's no plumbers to call, you end up going out there. So it's not all mailbox money. And as great as everybody says it is. And that for sure isn't. I'll call it passive income that the IRS calls it. But, you know, you do have I would say inopportune times where you get demands on yourself, but for the most part I do you think it's, I do think it's a great investment. 5:57 Yeah. Yeah, there's a there's a theory going around that there's no such thing as passive passive income, there's always going to be active in some way to get it. 6:06 Yeah, well, if people think real estate, I mean, it's qualified or quantified by the IRS is passive, but by no means is it is it passive, even though people say, Oh, you hire a property manager, yeah. But you still, you still have to hire them and manage them, you still have to add it to your tax returns. You can have your accountant do it. But it's, it's definitely not passive. But with all the new technology and automation, you can make it better than it was, you know, 40 years ago, for sure. 6:39 That's amazing. All right. So let's get into the meat potatoes of the conversation. So what is your specialty? And what are you trying to help people as far as in real estate, because you've, you've been a real estate for so long, but now you kind of pivot into this, this new space, not necessarily new space, but the space where you've really honed in on what you're doing now? 6:57 Well, it is it is kind of new space, because when I, my father had no idea, or never taught me that you could have an IRA, buy real estate, lend money, buy into private, private funds, et cetera. You know, the only thing we knew about IRAs, and 401, K's was stocks, bonds, and municipal funds, you know. So I actually found out about self directed IRAs in the late 90s, after my father died, because I actually borrowed money from an IRA. And then I said, Well, this is really cool. This is better than working, after I talked to the guy that did it. And it was, it was very interesting. So I pursued it. And I found out that with a Roth IRA, I could actually have tax free income for my life. And at the time for the rest of my kid's life. They since did away with that rule, and it's, you know, the Roth IRA, or all IRAs will be distributed 10 years after you die. But it was a, you know, it was a great way to make tax free income, and I love it still to this day. I don't you know, I don't have to worry about it, my tax returns are a lot simpler. So I just want to make sure everybody knows about those things. Because only the wealthy the wealthy, were doing them between, you know, the late, the late 70s. And, you know, I would say, you know, maybe 2005 2010 is when you started finding out more information on that. So 8:52 that's information that's missing, some misinformation, but it's information that's not readily available. 8:57 No, it's not, you know, and I mean, the brokerage houses, you know, would tell you that it was you know, it's illegal, it's risky. And it's hard to do, and there's a lot of rules. Sure, it's tied up there are IRS rules, but we're here to help you with them. And so is your accountant. Is it risky? I mean, it's the stock market risky, because a lot of people tell you it is today too is real estate risky. Yes, it is. There's people lose their jobs, you can get bad tenants that can ruin your places and not pay rent. So everything has some some 9:38 inherent risk, 9:39 right inherent risk. But doing self directed IRA and getting tax free income, if you're already in real estate, there's really nothing better than that. So I don't think it's risky at all because I grew up around real estate, and I'm not that very good in the stock market. And I've read books on the stock market, I've bought that you're probably too young to remember it. But there's there used to be ads coming on at three o'clock in the morning, you know, where you buy this software program, and it tells you, you know, red, yellow and green, you know, get ready to buy, get ready to sell, sell, buy, you know, and I wasn't any good at that I read a book on Blackjack, and I can go to Atlantic City and make more with that information than I can with all the books and software I bought on the stock market. 10:34 Now there's some the stock market, it's, I mean, it's, it's like everything else is a learning curve to it, and not everybody's gonna understand it, as well as other people. So if other people picked it up and learn the strategies a lot quicker, so manage the thing for you. So 10:53 this is for people, you know, if you do the stock market, that's great. But if you want to diversify into other things, you know, I think you need to have a self directed IRA company, and we don't sell anything, by the way. You know, all we do is the paperwork, if somebody's going to buy real estate, they find a piece of real estate, some people buy the house next door, or an apartment in town, or an office building, or raw land out in the country. So they can buy whatever they want, we don't sell any of that we just do the paper work so that the IRS accepts it. And it's being reported properly. So you know, I don't want people to get the misconception that we're selling real estate or any of that, you'll never see that from us. And other people will lend money on on the real estate that other people are buying, and turn their IRAs into many banks. And we don't put lenders and borrowers together or any of that. When we say self directed, we mean, you direct the money where you want it. But to me, it's the only way you can get true diversification. Because we you're old enough to see the market. And a lot of times the market goes down and 95% of the stocks go down with it. And then when the tide rises 95% of the stocks rise with it. So 12:22 so one thing I really I really want to touch on is like the amplification and power of IRA because I think a lot of people don't understand that as as what that really means. So is sociopath hexes on and off a capital gains, you can really amplify multiply your money a lot quicker, because you don't have to pay taxes on it. Right? 12:45 Correct. Well, yeah, there's a couple types of IRAs. Right, there's what I call the traditional IRA. And you know, which is tax deferred, and the the tax free IRA, which is the Roth, and they have the same components in 401, K's. But the difference is, when you put money into a traditional IRA, you get a tax break. That year. So let's say you put in $5,000, and you're in the 40% tax bracket, you're going to save $2,000 on your taxes. And that's why a lot of people do because they go to their accountant. And the accountant says, Well, you owe $4,000. But if you make a contribution to your IRA, of 5000, then you'll only pay 2000 to the government. And you'll have 5000 in your basically savings account that's earning, you know, tax deferred income. And the difference between that and the Roth IRA is you'd still pay the $4,000 in taxes, but then you'd put 5000 into your IRA, but everything that 5000 makes, will be tax free forever, when you pull it out. And that's where I think people should be working towards, because I do think taxes are gonna go up in the future. So pay your taxes today. And then everything you earn going forward will be tax free. And you can do that in a 401 k you can even do it in Educational Savings accounts. If you've got kids, I heard you say Daniel, and when those are, you know, you can use that money almost right away. So every rent comes in, you won't pay tax on it. You can pay your child's education expenses, whether it's in kindergarten, to, you know, postgraduate school, up to 30 years old, so, and health savings accounts right so you can Cover your retirement, your health and your educational costs with some of these plans, and if you're already doing real estate, it makes complete sense to start doing it now. 15:13 So you can you can use it towards, and that is that different types of IRAs where you can use that towards health benefits towards childcare and child education. Is that Yeah, 15:23 it's different types of accounts. Right Educational Savings Account is obviously for the education. Health Savings Account is specifically for health care. And then IRA, traditional IRAs and Roth IRAs are for retirement. So think of it that way. And people said, Well, which one? Which one? Should I have? I said, All right. Yeah, as many as you can, and a 401 k, right. Get as many of those plans as you can, because the government is basically rewarding you for saving for your retirement. Now, your next question is, do you want it to be tax deferred or tax free. And at a young age, I would say put it in the tax free, because your tax rate is very low. When you're, you know, when you're you get my age and you kids are all out here, deductions are all gone, you're paying a higher tax on the money that you make, so that at that point, I want to have everything in a Roth IRA. 16:28 That's amazing. I like I like the subject, because it's it shows like the amplification of money if you do it the right way. 16:37 And sure. Yeah, no, I mean, if you look at Mitt Romney, you know, when he ran, they showed his 100 million dollar IRA. And I don't know if you remember last year, Octo October, November that we're talking about Peter Thiel is billion dollar Roth IRA. Right. And a lot of people were upset about it, but he just took the rules and and made them work for him. You know, he makes a billion dollars on the outside, why not make a billion in his IRA? So, I mean, you see the real wealthy do it. But let me tell you, I think there's probably 60% of Americans are looking at tax advantage plans such as IRAs, 401, KS, et cetera? 17:26 No, I think I think it's a good strategy. I've learned I've heard a lot about about this, because if you've, if you use something like wholesaling real estate, you're using a small amount of money as far as like contracting properties. And then they'll put all that money, they might make wholesaling a property into the Roth IRA, to amplify it, and just snowball that money into into large, and so large, some tax free, over a short amount of time. And they're just building it. 17:54 Sure, and your head, you want to put your most say, safe, and most real know the one with the highest ROI, and your Roth. And if you run out of time, I always try to keep my Roth tax deferred Ira invested. And then thirdly, my own discretionary cash, because discretionary tax cash is gonna get taxed, you know, right away. My traditional IRA isn't gonna get taxed till I'm 72, or I take it out. And my Roth IRA is never getting taxed. So, I mean, it's just like, you know, the same philosophy as if you're paying off debt, you want to pay off the debt with the highest interest rate, right? Yep. So most people, most people are paying off credit cards versus, you know, house payments. 18:50 Yeah. 100%. So, what's the process? Like, if I were to go get an IRA created today? What's the timeframe? Is it like a 30? Day 90 Day punishment of any process? Or tomorrow? Is it like instantaneous? 19:04 Well, I mean, we can open up your account account in the same day, basically, and you can fund it in the same day. Yeah, we have to give you five or seven days by law to think about it. So to make sure that that we didn't talk you into it, and you think that it's a bad deal. So we give you seven days to let it rest there. And then and then you can invest. 19:34 Awesome. So one day, procreation seven day utilization period, that's it. Yeah. 19:42 Yeah, you got to wait seven days when you first open it to make sure that you know, I forget what they call it, but you weren't pressured into into opening up the account. 19:55 So one thing I really want to cover on this is that there's inherent risk, because technically since you are Self directing your IRA, you have to make sure you self directed properly. And I'm sure I'm sure that's one of the one of the things you kind of cover with the Ukrainians account like, hey, this could work. 20:12 Well, it's all on you anyway. You know, I mean, if you give your if you give your money to a fund, then the fund manager is doing it right. And then your risk is basically based on what that fund manager does. If you have if you have your account with Schwab, or, you know, your IRA with Schwab or Vanguard, or Merrill, Merrill Lynch or, or whoever else, TD Ameritrade, you know, and you're picking the stocks, you know, that that's the same risk that you're you're taking on, right. But, but I'll tell you right now, I don't think anybody watches your money, as well as as well as you do. Yeah. 100%. And, you know, and if I had to bet on somebody making the money, I would bet on you making it more than a fund manager making it for you. I mean, every once in a while you lucked out, but not by my books. 21:13 Now, that's the fund manager. They're paid, they're paid to win, and they're paid to lose. Either way they get paid. 21:19 Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what people say, is the stock market risky? I said not to the stock broker. 21:26 Yeah, he's a he's always paid for what? 21:29 He gets paid. Either way, exactly. They invest your money. And you take all the risk, but they get paid either way. 21:38 Yeah, it's a I've learned a lot about the stock market. And it's crazy to me how that worked. And like when I heard about that, like, what this is, like, they get paid to lose to like, this is insane. Yeah, but not as much. That as much but they still get paid either way. I mean, I mean, if you're already, if I already get paid to do my job or not, I probably I probably wouldn't. I probably wouldn't try and do my job. But if I messed up, I wouldn't care. 22:04 Right. It's a little bit like the weatherman he gets paid whether he's right or wrong. 22:07 Exactly. That's a good analogy. The weather man. Yeah. Man, that the weather man, man. Okay. That's a whole other topic because I think the weather man that was like, oh, it's gonna be nice and sunny today. ugi center, I have an organism's pouring down rain like that. Exactly. That's funny. 22:31 You don't even get mad at him anymore. You just go well, 22:34 he's the weatherman. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about self directed Islam Unlimited, based on I think you've mentioned this earlier. I don't know if you mentioned on this call already. But buying gold, buying assets, buying real estate, investing that into property, you said land, I think a little earlier houses. And you can you lend it out like a bank as well, to get yeah, there's 23:01 a lot of there's a lot of people who take their IRAs, and they'll lend to other IRAs, or they're lend to friends, right? Or they'll lend to other people that need money to buy a car. So yeah, they basically turn their IRA into a mini bank, I call it, I've seen him lend money on, you know, one of the primary ones is lending money to a rehabber, because banks pretty much shut shut, you know, construction loans down. So they'll pay, you know, 10 or 12%, for six months while they fix up a place. And then, and then refinance it, you know, now that it's in pristine condition, and the bank, you know, appraises it and then gives them their money, and then pay you back. You know, so that people find a way to get it done. And that's one of the ways they choose to do it. 24:03 So I really, I really want to cover the importance of this too, because why this is, I guess this is this is like, why would people want to invest in an IRA versus putting in a bank and pay taxes? But like, what, in what way? Can somebody I know the answer the question is, I'm trying to answer the full question for some of my listeners is one of the things what is the benefit of them utilizing their are 100% because they might not be able to use that money for somebody to or that to use it like one of these like active accounts for like music for childcare? Can they disperse money into other IRA accounts based off of them using money in certain accounts or if they use it for that specific account? Because they have the money they earn from that have to go back to investment? You 24:51 know, that's a great that's a great question. A lot of people will have IRAs, you know, and let's say they just retired from their from their company. when they retire from their company, they might roll their 401 k into an IRA. And they might have a couple 100,000 in there. But they say, Hey, I only want to use, you know, 50 or 100,000, someone to transfer 100,000 From my Vanguard account or my TD account over to this self directed account to lend to this rehabber at 12%. And I'll have the house as security. So they'll put the, the 100,000 over, they'll transfer it to camera plans, IRA account in their name, and then they'll make a loan on it. And let's say that loan goes for, you know, two years, at the end of the two years, if they don't have somebody else to loan it to, they can bring it back and put it back into the Vanguard account. Or if they don't like where the Vanguard account is going, or the markets in a freefall, maybe they pull it out and invest it in a different investment, or they just hold it in cash. And one of the things is, when your money is sitting with us, we don't charge you any fees until you do a deal. So if you're sitting in cash, then that's a, you know, you're not getting any charges. And I don't think there's any other companies out there. But I don't want you rushing to do a, to do a deal. I want the money there. I don't you know, because everybody else says, Well, I put, you know, my money in there, and they charged me 300 bucks, I didn't do anything, you know, or $500. So we just say, Hey, we're not going to, we're not going to charge let the people do their due diligence, don't rush him into a deal. Because I hate to be rushed. That's one of the reasons, I don't like 1030 ones, you know, I'm on a timeline I gotta buy based on their schedule. The other thing that I learned, you know, 15 years ago was, if I have money in a savings account, per se, at the bank, you know, five or $10,000, for a rainy day, I put that into a Roth because I don't you know, even you know, those days, you know, you're getting five or 6% in the bank, but I want and pay taxes on it. But more important than that was when you have money in an IRA or a 401 K, it is protected from creditors. So if you have a savings of bank there, and you get sued for one of your properties, or for any other reason that money is available to either either to your attorney to take or for the creditor to take, if it's in an IRA. It's not. And if it's in a Roth IRA, all your contributions can come out of a Roth IRA, without any penalties. So it was just free asset protection was the way I looked at it. And I haven't had a savings account since I'll just open up a another IRA and put money in there if I need it for a rainy day. 28:12 Yeah, that's a that is huge. I didn't know that. That creditors and anybody trying to see you can't take that that's, 28:25 well, that's one of the reasons you want to have camera plan on your side, right camera plan, self directed IRAs, because, you know, that's our business. We're good at it, we use it. My sister and I founded it, you know, 20 years ago. And we're investors and we set it up for investors. The fees are set up how we would like it, you get paid for what we do. And we think it's fair. And that's how we ended up using that philosophy, setting it setting it up. And that's the way we do our business today. 29:03 I like it a lot, though. I have another question. So now that you've been doing you've been doing real estate for so long are your kids in real estate as well? 29:13 Well, like I told you earlier, my grandparents were in it. My mom and dad were in it. I mean, I used to sit at the table and listen to them argue. My mom was one of these people that wanted now each of the tenants trade cookies, etc. And my dad was I don't want to see him. I don't want to run into him at the grocery store, et cetera, because they take up my time. So I had to listen to that and I can see both sides of it. But yes, I have real estate both commercial and residential. And my kids are in it. My kids do flips and they buy and hold and they rent so my one that does the flips, kind of taught me some stuff He says Dad real estate's good. I agree. But when the markets when the markets going good, and it's high, that's when you should sell. And when it's low you should buy. And I said, yeah. But he said, you hold through the high end the lows and just collect the rent. I said, Yeah, because if I sell, then I gotta go buy something else. And that becomes work. But he says, but you can make so much more, you know? So we talked about that, you know, he makes 50,000 on a flip or 100,000 on a flip and he says, you know, you're getting, you know, $2,500 a month, how long does that take you to catch up to me? Which I just did, you know, flip in a year? Yeah. 30:45 It's, it's, uh, there's, there's a lot of ways to make money in real estate, and no one no, there's no wrong way to do it. If you 30:54 know, people, people ask me all the time, you know, what's the best way to do it? And I said, the one that's most comfortable to you, and it will, it will work its way out, you know, I mean, flips to me is a lot of work. And as soon as you flip it, and you get rid of it, you got to start again, to make more money. But, you know, maybe it was when I was, you know, 10 years old, opening up the post office box and bringing in the checks, maybe that, you know, imprinted on my brain. And that's the way I am. But, you know, I listened to my kids, I learned a couple new things. I think they've gotten a lot easier with a lot more than technology. But I think there's a lot of people out there a lot more people are involved in it as a result of that as well. So the competition is tighter. 31:46 Yeah. I, I tell people like there's no, there's no wrong way to do it, just go find somebody that it's gonna work for you. And that does work that way for a while to expand your knowledge base to do other things. But don't don't overwhelm yourself either. By doing well, I 32:04 mean, I couldn't believe it when I could felt I could put real estate into an IRA, you know, pay 300 bucks a year, and have it all tax free. And I don't have to do reporting to the IRS on it. Right, I saved that 300 bucks from my accountant. Yeah, I don't have to pay to him. So I'm basically getting tax free income for free. 32:33 That's it. That's it. So I appreciate you coming on, man. I learned. I like doing these, because I like learning from the guests. And I definitely learned some stuff today that I will implement, and I hope my audience does as well. Because like I said, there's a lot of information out there. She's getting it from the right resources is always the key. 32:56 Yep, just have them go to camera And we'll, we'll help them if they've got any other questions. We can set up a private consultation for them and their advisors, same thing for you for free. And we'll get all your questions answered. Because we don't want anybody doing this without doing their due diligence and understanding it. So bring your accountants, your lawyers, your advisors, and get all the questions answered at once. Like I said, we've been doing this for 20 years. And most of the time we're not stumped by new questions. 33:33 It doesn't hurt them all. 33:37 Well, they go Ma, p 33:42 l a n camera Go check it out. We appreciate you coming on. I hope you got some value today from this episode. Please check us out on all platforms, and we appreciate your time. We hope to see you again in the future. Maybe we'll have you on again but I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you Carl. You have a great day. All right. 33:59 Thank you, Daniel. Really appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, one as well.

Carl FischerProfile Photo

Carl Fischer


Carl Fischer is a Cornell University graduate and third-generation real estate developer. Carl began his investing career in the 1970s when he was employed as a rocket scientist at Kennedy Space Center in Cape Canaveral, Florida. He is presently one of the founders and principals in CAMA Self Directed IRA, LLC (dba CamaPlan) founded in 2004. CamaPlan is a national company headquartered in Ambler, PA.
Carl has implemented plans and managed millions of dollars in real estate transactions. His real estate investments include commercial and residential properties, including real property, notes, and mortgages. He has been able to increase his personal net worth and control many endeavors with the self-direction tools available. He presently has tax-free income and profit for real estate, notes, and private placements. In addition to his hands-on experience, he has had the opportunity to speak to many groups including real estate investors and brokers, CPAs, financial advisors, attorneys, and mortgage professionals about the power and possibilities of IRA, 401k, and qualified plan self-direction. He provides continuing education credits for attorneys, accountants, realtors, appraisers, etc both nationally and state specific.
Carl’s unique background, education, experience, and empirical information relating to business, finance, technical requirements, scheduling, and overall management make him a key element in the success of his clients in controlling their own financial future.

Professional Associations/Licenses:
• Certified IRA Services Professional (CISP) by The Institute of Certified Bankers #31901
• Certified Trust Specialist
• Certified Distance Education Instructor (CDEI) ID: 67663
• Delaware Real Estate Commission Instructor #101111
• New Jersey Real Estate Continuing Education Instructor #I1000134
• Certified Financial Planner Board of Standards Sponsor #2803


• “Six Strategies To Make Sure You Have enough Money to Retire” July 2014 Issue, The Diversified Investor
• “Three Simple Reasons To Open A Truly Self-Directed IRA, 401K or Other Qualified Plan” June 2005 Issue, IRA & 401K Insights
• “Buying Property in Mexico with Your IRA” November 2006 Issue, IRA & 401K Insights
• “Grow Your Self -Directed Retirement Account with Non-Recourse Loans” July 2005 Issue, IRA & 401K Insights

Please copy on all emails, thanks!

Daniel Esteban MartinezProfile Photo

Daniel Esteban Martinez

Host/ Ceo/ Speaker

I have been an entrepreneur since 2018. I come from a regular home just like most people. My dad worked on the roads in the Chicago area for over 30 years. He always taught me to work with my brain, instead of my body. Your body can only take so much abuse. I learned so much from my father. He always pushed me to work smarter and not harder.

I have owned and operated a trucking business for 2 years. I started learning real estate in 2019. Fell into the Data & Skiptracing business in 2020. My partner Anthony & I started Hivemind in 2021.

I have done a ton of different jobs coming up from painting, to door-to-door sales, telemarketing, truck driving, and loading trailers. What I learned most is that I want to stay in the digital business space. The leverage you can have delivering digital products to the marketplace can yield limitless possibilites.

I started The List Guys in 2020. It is a data and skiptracing service. We provide seller and buyers list nationwide. My clients have been getting great results and I am proud to help people killing it.

I started the Hive in 2021 with my partner Anthony Gaona. It is a real estate and business mastermind. It also comes with a all in one CRM, that can host unlimited websites and users.

Starting the Hivemind has been an amazing journey so far. Seeing one of our users make his 6 figure month in June 2021 leveraging our software, I know there will be plenty more to come!